Grrl Power #145 – Let’s talk numbers
I’m experimenting with ways to get a lot of dialog on the page without giving it the wall of text look. I think this page is borderline, and I’m not sure I like the big yellow “narrator blocks.” In fact I’d prefer to avoid them. It just seemed to be the only way to get the page to end on the panel I wanted this time but hopefully I won’t need to lean on it too much.
Coming out of A-kon I’m a little behind, but I’ll update the vote incentive with the colored version sometime this week.
I’ve added an Amazon referral link for the book I’m reading down at the bottom of the right hand column, and eventually the plan is to make a page with brief reviews and more links so I can get some sweet pennies. Literally it’s a few cents if you buy something through one of those links, but it may pay for a few books eventually. It’ll mostly be superhero novels since that’s the kick I’m on at the moment, but I may stick other stuff in there I particularly enjoyed it or think you guys might.
Oh, one minor change I made to the site, you can now drag the comment box’s lower right corner to resize it, which should make writing/reviewing long comments a little easier.
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I just learned that Antarctic Press is running an Indigogo campaign to help pay for… basically they’re publishing into Walmarts but didn’t allow for the returns they have to pay for. They’ve already met their goal but I thought I’d point it out in case anyone would like to help out and get some swag. AP has published a number of titles over the years that have been rather influential on me and, well, it’s just nice to think that independent publishers can still exist in our world of corporate mergers.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
Lucy! You got some splainin’ to do!
YES! You got the reference, too!
As did I. Reading this for the first time several years late
Damn, Halo looks badass in the background.
Anyway- on to the reason I am commenting:
This seems like the most reasonable and fair-minded setup to deal with superpowers I have sever seen that does not involve killing off the majority of the planet due to small feuds.
Yea, my one reservation being what I took to be her big white eyes originally, before, later, realising it must just be her glasses. But the overall effects for both her and Maxima are really striking. And very much in the dark style of the Winged Rodent movies.
I was wondering why Maxima’s glasses did not strike me as odd, in contrast to Sydney’s. And decided it must just be because they are small enough that there was not a problem. Typically, if you see larger glasses on someone who is silhouetted, it is because the glasses are reflecting a light source. So the reflection itself will not be of the entire glasses but a reflected image of whatever the source is. Reference sources were proving hard to find, but here is an exampleof what I mean.
Personally, I’m a big Gold Digger and Ninja Highschool Hawaii fan, but for that same reason, getting ‘random’ comics seems… lame – and I can just picture them going “well, never thought we’d get rid of this crap….”…. I probably still give em something, but the rewards are just not appealing
Well, AP is in a tough spot, so giving out some of their backstock is what they can do. And it may expose you to something new, too.
There are other rewards, especially at the $25 and $40 levels. And you can just donate, without getting rewards, too.
actually, it’s much better then I thought – the language just isn’t clear – I posted to them, and they quickly responded that we CAN indicate which comics we would want, but they used the random language because they couldn’t guarantee something would be in stock, which i for one find perfectly reasonable
I’d love to see the structure of the “Archon Act”, Article 1 will likely be a about the protections and rights of normal citizens in relation to Supers, Article 2 don’t know if it will pander to the conservatives and cover the rights & protections non-individual entities (corporations) or to the liberals and cover the Supers, Article 3 will cove the one not covered in Article 2, Article 4 the Rights & Protections of the States, Article 5 the Rights & Protections of the Federal Government. it won’t be until at least article 6 that they get around to forming Achon.
As far as the ‘wall of text’ goes – I don’t mind one now and then. The biggest limitation of comics is their focus on the graphic – having to use images to show what’s going on. Sometimes the story requires a bit more, or something that can be conveyed in a few large text blocks, rather than a dozen pages of images that would be required to explain backstory that really would break the flow of the current story. I think the page above is about right for the situation.
Would be interesting to see what happens when we get to the point of supers doing citizen arrests, acting in self defense or on a more professional level as private investigator, security or bountyhunter.
This is interesting to me, because if the law purports to make things illegal specifically for supers, then they could argue it violates the equal protection clause of the constitution.
Yup. There would be similar challenges in any EU country which tried the same, under the European Human Rights Act. With various arguments supporting and weakening such a case. The EU is big on safety though, and the argument that ‘individuals with powers which might endanger the public, or their civil rights, should not be employed within law enforcement organisations of member states, except within those which specifically have the means to assess, train and give guidance on the use of such powers’ is a very good one.
Possibly though extreme right groups might separately oppose any attempt for super humans to get protection under the convention. If they do not like black, brown or yellow skins they are unlikely to appreciate blue, green or golden ones. But, of course, attempting such would require proving that they are not human. Given that the treaty probably do not have a precise definition of what ‘human’ is, that would be rather a difficult proposition.
Also I imagine that the court would promptly dismiss any such attempt. As it would be too similar to Nazi policies. And one of principles under which the convention was ratified in the first place was specifically to prevent such activities in the future.
Interesting factoid: There are roughly as many professional basketball players in the US as there are ‘theoretically speaking’ supers in this comic.
Each team may have 15 players on their roster, 12 of which may dress for each game. Since there are 30 teams in the league, at any one time there is a maximum of 450 players on NBA rosters.
Now the question of how many of group A are also from group B becomes *very* interesting…
If you simply apply the numerical chance of being a super for the numbers involved, more than likely none. Going by supers who choose to play basketball, possibly enough to make a team. Rather like Michael J. Fox, playing the teen werewolf, people with powers might be attracted to the fame and glamour.
But who would win? The super team or the Harlem Globetrotters?
Although, I suspect, once super powers became recognised as real, it would be considered unsporting (like using steroids or other drugs) to use powers in sport. Other than in demonstration or charity matches. But, there is the possibility that society might be equal opportunity and enjoy having supers in the top leagues. Big money going to attract even one to a top team.
It could even be competitively interesting, if there was a rule that each side could not field more people using super-powers * than the opposing team. Then it would be a matter of how can you counter the extra advantages that they have. Do you field your supers to block their supers? Meaning the match will mostly be decided by the skills of the non-powered, if the supers are evenly matched. Or do you set half your team to running interference on the supers and free up your own stars?
* Powers which had no impact on the game would be exempt of course, players who only had such would be classed as normal people for such purposes. And, if there was no opposing super, then a player who can turn off his powers could come on to the field as a normal player. With appropriate sanctions if he lapses and uses his powers.
There was actually a cartoon a bit back where the harlem globetrotters had superpowers and fought crime XD it usually ended in the villians challenging the heroes to a game of basketball and losing terribly
They also appeared on Futurama
Going strictly by numerical chances it is low, but consider that supers tend to be exceptionally healthy/ strong/ TALL/ etc… kinda sounds like a professional athlete doesn’t it?
What better place to use your hidden edge of being a super to get ahead? As long as they don’t use their super abilities on the court and just rely on the extra strength and speed (and again – height!) that they get as side benefits for being a super they get rich and famous and nobody can tell the difference.
Back in the old days of a comic called Alpha Flight there was a bit of personal angst (Marvel mutants with angst? Really?) because an Olympic level skier discovered he could fly. He quit competing the next day and never told anyone why he quit the sport he loved more than anything else in the world. It tore him up that he could never tell if his power was helping him or not…
Doubtless the revelation of supers existing will upend professional sports somewhat. Especially if there is no way to tell if someone is a super or not.
Usain Bolt. Need I say more?
Can’t be talking about Northstar, he used his powers to cheat his way to Olympic gold before he retired, when they truth finally came out they naturally moved to invalidate all his medals and give the real winners the gold instead.
What one’s superpower actually IS, and what exactly consititutes a superpower, are both questions that are expecially relevant to the ‘Supers In Sports’ question (and ‘Supers Anywhere Else’ as well).
I mean, to bring up a few famous sportsmen of the US – could Babe Ruth have been a Super? Or Ty Cobb? Or Micheal Jordan? Or Tiger Woods? What about someone who is just extremely good at math (is Sheldon Cooper a super)? It gets messy real quick.
weird but, does the batman knock off have an “I have the weirdest boner right now face” and do you think it has something to do with dabbler?
CNN has been doing some articles on Comics on their entertainment section
https://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/comic-book-heroes/
They just added a new article today about women in comics. The author discusses the depiction of male and female heroes. She makes the startling conclusion that “superhero men in comics look like body builders and athletes while most female superheroes today look more like porn stars.”
Frankly I’m shocked that a business primarily selling to adolescent hormonally-charged boys would stoop to something like that.
Y’all aught to let them know about Grrl Power then. Although, I suspect, that Sydney might put them off promoting it a the poster comic for balanced portrayal. The politically correct censors would be too scared of her language! :-D
The news story is does come across a little like “Breaking news, we’ve just learned that prohibition has been repealed, and that the pope is catholic!”
VITAMEATAVEGAMIN! Why has nobody noticed this yet? I don’t think anyone even remembers the reference anymore…
I am from the UK* and even I have seen the clip of Lucy getting drunk and trying to advertise it! Albeit on YouTube at the behest of an American friend. But I have seen a reasonable number of episode on UK TV years ago. They stood the test of time. Quality does.
I must admit though that I missed the reference until I read some of the I Love Lucy comments and realised the connection.
* Subject to terms and conditions. Gaining of superpowers might have applied.
The one thing that bothers me is — why would Archon have their operatives’ real names (and by extension, their civilian identities) be public? They may technically be just another part of the military, but the Archon agents are going to be fighting supervillains — the grand overlords of taking and making things personal — and will be doing so while wearing fancy costumes and showing off unique powers and abilities that will make sure that they stick in the memory of whomever they go up against. Furthermore, there aren’t very many of them, making each one (as well as his/her friends and/or loved ones) a high-value target for their enemies. All that Suit-Wearing Cacklyman McOverlord would need to do is look up their names on the Internet, find out where each member’s parents, siblings, and/or children are living, and throw a Semtex time bomb through their windows: even if they never run into a supervillain willing to use such brutal strategies, putting the protagonists’ names on billboards will only make sure that three years from now, once the first few rounds of archenemies have been forged, any residence Archon’s members may have once possessed will be buried underneath a mob of freshly-escaped supervillains rushing in to take vengeance.
Also, if they become so famous that they can’t go anywhere without drawing attention, what the frag is going to happen if they encounter a spymaster, clairvoyant, or otherwise well-informed opponent? Good luck finding him; he went to the next state to continue working out his plans as soon as he saw the paparazzi mobbing you at the airport being broadcast on national television. In fact, it could easily make it so that any supervillain with a working TV set will have up to an hour’s headstart or more on the protagonists (although that could be used to justify having villains that make use of complex booby traps or the like; “Fools! The Insider Hourly Report told me you would come!”).
I’m sorry to use this kind of vitriolic criticism, but it’s what I write best; I genuinely like this webcomic. I’ve followed it for at least a year now, and it carries a certain Silver Age light-heartedness that is upsettingly hard to come by in modern works; the characters are solidly fleshed-out, the jokes work pretty much every time, and the artwork has a nice combination of crisp, clean edging and smooth, gradient coloring work. But I can’t help but worry and nitpick because I’ve seen good comics go bad before, especially by introducing too much cynicism and/or delving too deep into the ickier end of human behavior (such as paparazzi, celebrity stalkers, reality TV, capitalist exploitation & merchandizing, etc., in this case), leading to atrocities like Irredeemable, which has great art, a few interesting ideas, and good dialogue, but is slowly bludgeoned into an unlikable mess by a plot that can be summed up as “Superman knock-off suddenly turns out to be an insecure sociopathic narcissist with a God complex and the class of a bratty racist 10-year-old, then starts killing everyone because they don’t all love him all the time, and no one can stop him”; seriously, don’t read it unless you genuinely enjoy watching a horrible person do horrible things while everyone who tries to stop him either dies a horrible, lingering death or is revealed to be just as bad as the antagonist, creating an all-consuming mire of soul-draining bleck that even Superboy-Prime never managed to achieve.
Rambling tangents aside, I think you’ve accomplished something great with Grrl Power, and I will follow it wherever it chooses to go. I hope that I’ll look back on this comment in a few years and say “yes, people who spoke up in the comic’s defense, you were right; I was being unreasonable and paranoid when I wrote this”. It’s just that I’ve been hurt so many times before that my mind now automatically runs for the most jaded, pessimistic possible projected future when I’m enjoying an ongoing work of fiction, and the frustration and anger that produces needs to get vented somehow. Please, if there’s some massive flaw in my argument above, just feel free to ignore this whole comment; hopefully, eveyone will be able to put these fears out of their minds forever in the days to come.
the main problem with them NOT revealing their identities is the law, both in the sense of testifying at court, and legally the difference between a citizen and the police – its not that having a secret police unit of supers nobody knows about or can confirm, such as Gold Digger’s Team Zero, doesn’t have it’s advantages, but not only is it borderline illegal, it risks the unit themselves being used for evil purposes – this transparency is to prevent super hate and panic.
as for forwarning, it might work on Sydney, sure….but did you see how fast Maxima flew while on TV? Or How about Mr. Amorphous or Dabbler’s illusion? It could end up being “How could you possibly be here to stop me when you’re on the 5 o’clock news!”
While they could theoretically be targeted, it seems the Archon Headquaters is also where they’ll live, and they use call signs and have magic and bs science, plus Leon level hacking…. I’m not saying its perfect, but they have the major bases covered, I’m sure
and irredeemable sure was terrible
Still, even special ops military/police keep their normal identities secret, for just the same reasons. And it would really be terribly prudent to keep them up, even if it’s only to enable their families to live reasonably normal lives without paparazzi following them (the heroes themselves and every family member/friend) everywhere. That’s where the problems would start. How do you raise a kid with anybody in your close circle being a superhero and hounded by the yellow press every moment of your life? Just for example.
Heroes don’t only have a secret identity for themselves to be safe from villains, but to take some time off now and then too.
Likewise the UK’s closest real-life equivalent to Arc, the Special Air Services. Their identities are never revealed in court. Unless they are the defendants, which is a different matter. They are required to testify, but do so with their identities concealed in a remote-video link. Being referred to by terms such as “Sergeant A” or “Lieutenant X”. Similarly with under-cover police or other public servants who may come under threat of personal retaliation or loose their ability to conduct covert policing.
Actually, I think that the super’s identities should either be fully disclosed or never disclosed, even if they’re the defendant. Having your identity broadcast if you’re ever charged with a crime makes it too easy for a corrupted system to blow a supers cover by charging them with a crime whether they did it or not. Imagine this headline “Superman charged with flying without a license, will be charged under his real name, Clark Kent, of the Daily Planet!”
Yea, I was not intentionally suggesting that a hero should automatically have their secret identity revealed if a defendant. In fact I was thinking about a recent case where a member of the regiment had been convicted of possessing an illegal firearm. Which, as it was not an operational matter, meant that he was not given anonymity.
Personally, I found his defence that he simply forgot about it (having had it given to him as a gift, which he should have declared on returning to Britain) to have been credible and am glad that his sentence was overturned on appeal. A sniper serving in Iraq has weapons around him a lot, and can be forgiven for for letting it slip his mind.
Such an offence would not justify unmasking a super though. In fact, there is no reason why, if convicted, he could not serve his time masked (although the courts would need to identify him, out of public view obviously). But what if one should one accused of, say, rape? Sexual offenders often have a history, which would potentially happen mask-on and mask-off. Past victims often come forward when a case is announced. Adding credibility to that case and allowing justice for other victims too.
Allowing the defendant anonymity would be contrary to current UK law, which gives it to the alleged victim, but not to the accused. The whole area is a very tricky ethical minefield.
Of course, if you make exceptions like above, then there is the likelihood that villains, and others with vested interests, will do their part to sexually frame supers in order to have them charged and unmasked. To see the possibilities, by a real-life comparison, look at Julian Assanage.
I recall having seen an interview with him, before any allegations were in the news, where he was asked “Do you, or your staff, suffer threats from governments?” Which he replied “Yes, in fact just recently we have been warned, from a senior Washington source, that we should be careful of sexual smear attacks.”
Naturally, when the news eventually broke, I went back to that interview. To cross-reference the dates to the dates of the incidents. Figuring that if the interview was after those dates then it could be viewed as attempting to establish an alibi. Whereas if it was before, then it gives credence to him having been framed. Albeit also showing him to have been monumentally stupid to have still been fooled.
I found that the interview preceded the dates the offences were alleged to have occurred. So was getting ready to link it to show a friend. Wanting to say what time to skip to for the pertinent part, I re-watched it. Only to find that section of the interview was no longer there! Note that it has been filmed, and probably hosted on a server, within the USA. Draw what conclusions you choose to from that.
I think exposing them only when they’re actually convicted would be the best idea. Still a chance that they were innocent but that’s never stopped the courts from sending people to highly dangerous prisons IRL.
Surely the main problem with Max’s secret identity is that she is about seven feet tall, with gold-plated skin, purple hair and a physique that LOOKS as though she lifts trucks with one hand? That isn’t accounting for Dabbler, and are you seriously suggesting that Heatwave has the brains to even be consistent about who she is at the moment?
Dabbler is currently sitting in front of the world’s TV cameras and they are unaware that she has four arms and purple skin. Looks really aren’t a problem. Even if Dabbler is not competent enough to cast her illusions on others, they still have whoever did the disguises for Amorphous and Achilles at the bank. Although Heatwave has shown one instance of being really slow to catch on and another of being rather gullible, do not write her off as dumb yet. Dave assures us that she is capable enough.
But it is all arbitrary anyhow, they are going for the open route. Which does have big advantages, as listed. But also has big disadvantages. Of course, knowing that you will be pissing off the biggest concentration of supers on the planet by kidnapping Aunt May might just deter them from that strategy.
Because it’s good P.R. and as a distraction. While there would be advantages to keeping the identities of the super goon squad secret, in the cases where that’s even possible…which is not Maxima or even Sydney, what they want is for the media and by extension the public to love them and not be suspicious of them.
And they want to attract attention to the open non-secret team and away from the covert spook squad.
Good points.
I agree on that point, and all the arguments supporting it. On the plus side, they do all have code-names, and hopefully they will be using those in preference to real names. Sadly, in the modern era, it is all too easy to reveal someone’s identity just from their face.
Although I am not a member of Facebook, its programs can probably identify me by face. All it would have taken is one friend, former work colleague or relative to have tagged a single photo with me in it, and my privacy will have been lost forever. Likewise for them. Let alone the very obvious fact that everyone who is seen at the conference will be outed in a minute by all their friends watching from public places going “Oh look that is [insert name].”
Let us hope that Arc has some superpowered backup on this issue. Someone who can globally mask the private identities of the heroes* in some way. Well enough that even loved ones will not recognise them and accidentally blab their identities. Which would be a lot better than the “boy Lois Lane is really dumb” angle.
* Do we know what they will be called yet? Agents, operatives, police, supers?
they will be called… the Archons!
There’s a number of reasons for public identities, some of which have been covered by other commenters, like the ability to testify. Also there is the concern this early in the game as to what the public reaction will to supers. They don’t want to create a witchhunt/mutant hatred situation because first off, why would you want to poke that particular tiger with that particular stick? (In this example the tigre has laser eyes and lightning fur) and even beyond that, cooler heads have made the argument that supers are an unbelievably valuable natural resource. Of course the best way to do this is to take the naturally beautiful supers and turn them into superstars.
Keep in mind the comic focuses mostly on the Arc-SWAT members. If they show up somewhere, it’s because of a planned appearance that Arianna set up, or they’re there to kick somebody’s ass. Arc-LIGHT has Fringe/X-files type agents that, to be fair, I haven’t introduced yet, but they’re responsible for uncovering all the dirty plots. Their job is to preemptively find the underground lab full of cyber zombie animal people, then sic Arc-SWAT on them. And, don’t forget about the other branch that will certainly not be mentioned at the press conference, Arc-DARK. The identities of the people in that branch is so secret that no one will ever even know they exist (at least, that’s the plan).
Well seeing as they’re being set up as superstars, there will be merchandising and paparazzi, but hopefully most of it will be lighthearted. Imagine Sydney’s reaction to getting an action figure of herself. Some parts of the comic have changed from what I originally envisioned though, stuff I don’t think I want to use because it’s so contrary to the established tone, like someone, as you mentioned, threatening Maxima’s family. I just don’t think that I could put that in because I’d either have to tone down her response to the point that it wouldn’t feel like an honest portrayal of her anymore, or take the comic through a dark story arc, which I really don’t think I want to do. But as you said, let’s see where we are in 10 years. :) Maybe I’ll figure out a way to do it (as I think it’s a good insight into Maxima) without dragging the comic into the mire.
BTW Irredeemable sounds sort of interesting just by the merit of it not being Superheroes by the numbers.
max would report the threat to her family to her superiors and the proper personnel would investigate then respond while max holds herself back at headquarters to avoid improper emotional reactions. this is standard procedure for any government agency or position.
Except that she’s their heavy hitter, so if the enemy is heavy enuf she’d need to be called in anyway. It’s like a military engagement where each side only has one tank and you’re sure as hell not going to stop their tank by throwing infantry at it……unless they’re zombie infantry perhaps.
“cooler heads have made the argument that supers are an unbelievably valuable natural resource” I have been to ask about this… do these “cooler heads” consider supers to be a natural resource like oil or gold, to be found, mined and put to use, or like a top sports player, a resource that autonomous, but dangerous if taken by rivals, and so given “an offer they can’t possibly refuse”?
Hmm. It hasn’t come up yet. I guess we’ll see what happens when a super decides to marry his Chinese girlfriend then move there with her.
The short answer is this is the government and this branch doesn’t have secret IDs as an option like the CIA. It’s actually illegal to reveal the real ID of a CIA operative if you learn it and they function just fine. As Dave and others have said, there are other branches of ARC. Technically Sidney should have been offered an option as to which branch of ARC she should would like to have been part of, yet, Sidney really isn’t an ARC-Dark kind of person and ARC-Dark has a duty to protect themselves from Bad Recruits.
As to the threatening of Family members, I suggest the Whateley Academy Stories at crystalhall.org. They mention a students family being threatened by a terrorist group, and that group became a senior project. No villain wants to end up being a Super School’s Senior Project. It involves a really big hole in the ground an lots of public pain.
Just think of what Gibbs (NCIS) did to the dude who killed his wife and daughter.
Now, scale that up to levels of Superman or Son-Goku and from there to 11.
Big holes in the ground? It’d rather be how black holes were invented.
@DaveB: Irredeemable actually does manage to be interesting at points (such as one superhero who is a man with wings who’s been alive since at least the fall of Rome), but trust me, it just has no interest in pursuing them, unless it involves doing something horrible (such as having the aforementioned winged man be mutilated by a demon and left broken on the field of battle, alive but with his wings torn off and unable to continue his life’s work of protecting the innocent). If you really are interested, though, I’ve heard much better things about Irredeemable’s sister series, Incorruptible. It’s set in the same universe and follows Max Damage, a supervillain who has chosen to try and reform and act as a role model for others after seeing the Hell unleashed by the Plutonian, their world’s Superman analogue. It apparently manages to avoid the Stygian blackness of its sibling, probably at least in part because it’s focused on portraying a flawed man’s search to be better instead of a superhero-flavored version of Hellraiser’s diary, and even manages to be funny at times.
So basically it’s superpowered slavery / work for the criminals or be a criminal? If you look at most of the vigilantes they take on the whole crimefighting bit because the government and the police have failed. and they continue to fail even then because they keep releasing the bad guy from prison, or the bad guy breaks out, or the bad guy has great lawyers, etc. Why would a decent person want to work for these people? And do you really think they’ll be allowed to just not play hero? Doesn’t seem to me like that’s too likely. Oh they might say you’re free to do what you want but then they’ll make a law against using superpowers without their say so. Which means Ares can’t work construction…..or pretty much any job since he’s using his powers just by being alive. Flyers can’t fly to work, speedsters can’t zip around on their daily mundane lives, and anyone else with a power can never ever use it without being branded a supervillian. Honestly with that kind of set up I forsee alot of people just going the Punisher way, afterall you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
No they can use their powers, they just can’t break the law whether they’re doing it or not. Not dying if an I-beam clonks you in the head isn’t illegal. Smelting aluminum for an aluminum smelting company isn’t illegal. The feds don’t care if you’re using eyebeams or an… aluminum smelting… flange. Or however they do that.
The essence of your argument seems to be that if supers behave illegally, they are punished within the law, and if they behave legally, they are not. This raises a host of interesting questions to me along the lines of the following:
Does a speedster get a speeding ticket for violating speed limits, or is he considered a fast moving pedestrian?
Are people with superstrength working in construction cited with DUI type infractions if they come to work intoxicated? After all, they are essentially heavy equipment, which it is illegal to use while intoxicated, but they are also people, and while it is inadvisable to come in to work intoxicated, and may get you fired, it is not strictly illegal (depending on the profession, as I think medical professionals are actually forbidden to be intoxicated while on call/during their shift).
What type of licensing would be required, if any, for underwater powered superheroes, eg aquaman, if they do things like relic recovery off of shipwrecks?
Actually what’s even more frightening is that a super like that probably couldn’t drink ever without getting charged if that were the case. Even if they were at home they’d still be operating their heavy selves under the influence.
Interesting questions. I can answer one, albeit under UK law. The States, and elsewhere, might handle it differently
He gets the ticket. Even cyclists have been convicted of breaking the speed limit on public roads. It is just as unsafe for a cyclist to do so, as a car, if not more so. Further I recall a lawyer involved in one such case replying to an interviewer’s question that if a pedestrian managed to break a (presumably very low) speed limit, say by running downhill, he too would be breaking the law.
Possibly a super might make the case that his reactions are so fast the he himself was at no greater risk. But he would still be creating both a distraction and a hazard for other traffic. Unless he was going so fast that they could not see him. In which case, one would assume it would be very unlikely that he would ever get caught!
Would a speedster be required to run in the middle of the street like a car or would s/he be banned from doing so because s/he is a pedestrian?
Yes.
Did you just answer yes to both? Sounds like you’ve studied law. haha
No. I can pass myself off as an expert in many fields. But not to an expert in any field.
I’ve seen instances where in law where is is both illegal to do something and illegal not to do it. For instance, here the law on bicycling says that bicyclists must ride in the street and not on the sidewalk. It also says bicyclists must ride on the side walk and not in the street.
Heh. Yea, what I was alluding to is that law makers are notoriously fickle. Politics can end up with some strange compromises coming into law. Not to mention politicians often ignoring both common sense and scientific advice. So it would be nothing more than a guess as to which laws they might choose to pass. And, for the question you posed there are merits to either route. So different jurisdictions may go different ways.
But do not forget that supers are very rare, so many places will probably not make laws anyhow. And the rarer the power the less likely they are to make specific laws on how it is used. Let us say that enhanced speed or reflexes is pretty common. But really fast speed, enough to be a problem with speeding tickets on the open highway, probably is rarer. Let us say 1 in 20 heroes might have that level. With an estimated US population of 200-400 supers, that means only 10 or 20 super speeders in the entire US.
Federal law makers probably have more on their mind than making specific laws that only cover that number of people. General laws, on the other hand, are more likely. “It is illegal to use super powers to view private property in ways that normal humans cannot, without the consent of the owner” is vague and general enough to cover a wide range of powers. Such as flight, x-ray vision, remote sensing, crystal balls, teleporting to places where people could not walk or easily climb and so on.
Individual communities with a super in their midst though might choose to make laws covering their powers, if they feel concerned or if they are being a nuisance. I just popped the numbers into a spreadsheet, to give you an idea. Relevant numbers: Population USA 2012 = 313.9 million
Taking the average number of 300 supers in the USA gives a national ratio of supers to normals of 1 to 1,046,333.
This is a list of the 12 biggest cities in the US, in order of population. 2012 estimated figures as per Wikipedia. Followed by the capitol, which is only 24th in the ranking. The final column being the percentage chance that one hero in the entire citie’s population will have a specific power, if it is only possessed by 1 in 20 supers. Rounding to the nearest convenient number.
City Population Supers Chance for specific power
New York 8,333,697 8 40%
Los Angeles 3,857,799 3-4 18%
Chicago 2,714,856 2-3 13%
Houston 2,160,821 2 10%
Philidelphia 1,547,607 1-2 7%
Phoenix 1,488,750 1-2 7%
San Antonio 1,382,951 1-2 7%
San Diego 1,338,348 1 6%
Dallas 1,241,162 1 6%
San Jose 982,765 1 5%
Austin 842,592 Maybe 1 4%
Jacksonville 836,507 Maybe 1 4%
Washington 632,323 0-1* 3%
* About a 60% chance of one having been born (or otherwise acquired super-powers) here, although probably far more in residence, if only in the proximity of the White House.
Grrr. Bad program, stripping out the spaces!
City……………..Population…….Supers……..Chance for specific power
New York……..8,333,697………8……………. 40%
Los Angeles….3,857,799…….. 3-4…………..18%
Chicago………..2,714,856……..2-3…………..13%
Houston………..2,160,821……..2…………….10%
Philidelphia……1,547,607……..1-2……………7%
Phoenix…………1,488,750…….1-2……………7%
San Antonio……1,382,951…….1-2……………7%
San Diego………1,338,348…….1………………6%
Dallas……………1,241,162…….1………………6%
San Jose………….982,765…….1………………5%
Austin………………842,592…….Maybe 1……4%
Jacksonville……….836,507…….Maybe 1……4%
Washington……….632,323…….0-1*………….3%
“It is illegal to use super powers to view private property in ways that normal humans cannot, without the consent of the owner” That could actually be discriminatory, I’m sure DareDevil sees everything in ways that normal humans cannot so he’d have to just not look at anything ever. One version of Destiny that I’ve read had her as technically blind but with the ability to navigate by seeing a few seconds into the future. Again, something normal con not do and something the super can’t not do.
Yup. As with any law, sensible exclusions would need to be drafted. Mind you, there are good arguments for not continually creating new laws to deal with every situation. Or to keep the laws to simple principles that can be adapted to any situation. The basic principles involved here being that “people have the right to privacy” and “people have the right to security”. Which his vision would not violate (unless it allows kinky x-ray images, as opposed to the more likely icky ultrasound type ones).
An alternative way, that I have always rather admired, was developed in one of the Scandinavian countries, back when they only had an oral tradition. Once a year, everybody was required to gather to hear the laws being recited. Obviously this had a practical purpose, because no one could claim ignorance of the law, if they were regularly reminded of it each year.
Other than that though, it also meant that the body of law could not get burdensomely large. If there were too many laws, then it would not be able to sit through hearing them all in one session. The cutest tradition, however, was that if the person reciting the laws forgot to mention one (or it was deliberately withheld) and no one picked him up on it, then it was deemed to have been officially dropped.
If a law is so insignificant that no one noticed its absence then it does not deserve enforcement. By the way, back in those days, the general populace were much better than we are today at remembering vocal lists and messages. Our brains adapt to the needs we face in each generation, and in the pre-literary era, that was much more important than it was today. And the development of their brains proceeded accordingly. So folks would be likely to remember it as being missing, if pointed out.
Hate to have to contradict you, but legally most jurisdictions treat bicycles as vehicles. Practically speaking, that means they can commit traffic offences (such as speeding), and be legally at fault if they get into an accident with a car. They just tend to get a lot of slack, because hey, they’re bicycles.
Pedestrians, on the other hand, are pointedly not vehicles under the law, and can never commit a vehicle-specific traffic offence or be at fault for an accident. So no, the speedster would not, in fact, get the speeding ticket. If he was really causing a problem, I suspect the police would try to come up with something else to charge him under (like jay-walking). It’s an open question as to whether that would stick in court though.
Of course a pedestrian can be held accountable, and therefore at fault, in a traffic accident. Let us say if a protester chose to jump out in front of a politician’s car whilst it was travelling at speed. He would be responsible for his own death, the damage to the car and any other deaths or injury. Be they amongst the driver, passengers or innocent bystanders.
If the driver had been acting in a responsible manner, and the court found that he had no means of anticipating or avoiding the accident then he would be blameless in the matter. But, agreed, the pedestrian would be charged using some law which did not involve being in charge of a vehicle.
The rest of your point, about me applying a legal opinion on whether a bike can break the speed limit to a pedestrian is well made. However, the underlying logic which applies may still render my line of reasoning valid. If a super power effectively grants the individual properties like that of a vehicle, then a court may well deem that he must be judged according to the laws laid down for operating a vehicle.
Take a different super-power for a clearer example of what I mean. Say an individual can conjure a car up out of thin air. He then gets into it and drives it. That is a vehicle. Now let us say that it does not actually exist. He is simply creating an illusion of a car, but using telekinesis or some such to move himself around. In both instances he is using a super power to emulate using a vehicle. Regardless of the fact that no factory has produced the car.
From there it is easy to extrapolate the reasoning to a super-speeder doing the same.
I suspect, that the first time a super gets involved in a traffic accident where his or her powers blurred the line between pedestrian and vehicle, it is an issue that would be contested in the courts. And would get bumped up the tiers of the legal system, in the usual process taking years, until it ultimately stood before the Supreme Court (of whatever jurisdiction was involved).
Unless some politician was insightful enough to draft and get passed a bill which anticipated such problems and clarified the points of law.
Sorry, you’re right. Bleh, need to double-check my sources before I post.
Don’t worry about it. Despite having a flaw in the argument, the rest of it was sound enough to shift my position from an absolute to conceding that it is a debatable point. Albeit that my positioning within the debate would remain on the same side. I do not lightly shift my stance, so you did well.
I did think of one other, related point, just before nodding off. It is actually possible to be charged with a motor vehicle offence without even being in a vehicle. If you enter a car park, for example, whilst drunk and the police catch you, you can be charged with being in control of a vehicle whilst under the influence of alcohol* , provided you have the keys on your person. Without even being in the car.
The point of law being that it shows intent to drive. There is no need for the police to wait until a drunk gets behind the wheel to prove that. If he had intended to walk home, he would be heading in that direction. Or, if he had good friends, they would have taken the keys off him, so that he could not put himself and others at risk whilst drunk, even if he tried to get in the car. But keys + drunk and heading towards your car = criminal offence.
Which shows that the law is more concerned with intent and the capability to commit the crime, rather than just the vehicle itself being the issue. Strengthening the argument in my previous reply.
* Again, in the UK, I have no idea how other jurisdictions handle this specific point.
Ok, but it still brings up a chinaesque problem. If it’s illegal to use your powers to fight crime without a badge, and a crime occurs in your vicinity, then it’s safer legally to just let it happen. For instance, you’ve got super speed and you’re bullet proof, and there’s a driveby at the schoold you do janitorial in. Sure you could just zip out there and block all the bullets with your face, but that would be illegal.
Not at all. Laws covering acting in self-defence also allow you to protect other people who’s lives are in immediate danger too. Those are existing real world laws. And the law mentioned above does not change that.
Where it would become a problem is if, having saved the kids, you then took it upon yourself to track down the gang the criminals belonged to, and beat up/kill the members. Amongst other things, if your super-powers do not include omniscience, you are just as likely to mis-identify who the bad guys are.
Look at the recent online vigilantism conducted through Reddit, over the Boston bombings, and that miscarriage of justice and the tragic resultant death of the innocent person accused. Which happened despite all the resources available to thousands of people online. One nutter who decided to take the law into his own would not realistically be any more competent.
If you limited yourself to just finding the guys you believe to be criminals, and then telling the police, ok that is probably just classed as neighbourhood watch. So long as it did not involve breaking other laws. For instance criminal trespass, breaking and entering, wire-tapping or the like. Or the classic beating up ‘low life scum’ and dangling them head first off the top of a building to make them talk. Which class as assault, grievous bodily harm and torture, in case you think those are acceptable means. And if you get it wrong, well the police are used to sifting through the information provided by hundreds or even thousands of cranks in order to find the genuine, credible, intelligence that can break a case.
Note that nothing about my entire reply is dependent on a person being super. Because it does not. Re-read what Arianna says above. She is just making it clear that citizens should not base their knowledge of the law on what Hollywood movies say. Super or otherwise. But if that is the limit of folk’s knowledge of the law, remember that the sheriff has to deputise you before you set up your posse*. Or you have a lynch mob. And Maxima will kick your butt!
* Arc being the posse you can join if you want to chase the robbers into the hills.
Yes but the problem with these laws is that you are still arrested, still sent to jail. Self defence is decided in the court and sadly it’s not a clear case. You have to prove that you were “reasonably” in fear. It helps if there’s witnesses to back you up of course but if there aren’t it’s your word against theirs. And if there’s more than one of “them” then they’re treated as separate witnesses instead of just being a collective entity. 3 to one is not great odds in court, unless your power somehow protects you in court. Also you might have noticed that the police irl don’t take too kindly to us ‘doing their job’ even when they show little inclination to do it themselves.
Actually, come to think of it, if you’ve got super powers it might be impossible to prove that you are reasonably in fear of anything, after-all why would Mr. Bulletproof be afraid of a guy with a machine gun? It’d be like saying you were afraid the paraplegic guy was going to beat you up.
Very true. But, in your original example, it is the kids being shot at that he would be in fear for.
Those are the risks that everybody in society takes. Why would we treat someone with extraordinary powers any differently? Does being bullet proof make them less likely to lie than other folks? What alternative would you propose? Something like diplomatic immunity? If so, how do you stop super villains from claiming it? They do not all wear black hats and command dramatic lightning on cue when they laugh. Well… errr… unless they have bought one of those gadgets from Deux.
ya there’s prolly no real answer here that doesn’t get into special privileges But it still stands that it’s legally safer to do nothing especially as the sentence for vigilanteism for supers is likely to be higher simply because of their powers. It’s the difference between using a cricket bat on a thug and using an orbital death ray.
Mmmmmm Orbital Death Ray.
Now, you could say that no court would find you guilty for that but courts are fickle. A jury could be swayed by the fact that you don’t just do the “right” thing and join archon, which could also point that you’re possibly a criminal trying to avoid being caught up in oversight.
A jury wouldn’t think that a professional athlete who performed a citizen’s arrest on a couple of undiscerning muggers should give up his career and join the police. Why would they assume that Irn-Bro or the Bauxite Beamer should?
Because they believe that super powers means you have to either fight crime or be a criminal. Just think about it, aside from Ares working construction (which i doubt he applied for by saying “hi, i’m Ares God of War, I’m here about the job offer”) have you ever heard of a comic about a super powered janitor or something who did not either fight crime or commit it?
Flinx* spends one entire novel as a junior sanitation engineer. Which makes his eventual means of leaving absolutely hilarious. It being something that not only should be completely unavailable to a janitor, but also breaks the laws of physics! As a character though, his principle motivations are to deal with the s**t that happens in his life, not to act as a galactic vigilante.
That said, he is an endearing character that will not idly stand by if he sees injustice going on in front of him. It has been far too long since I last read them, so the details are becoming blurred, but I seem to recall that he may have gotten involved in stopping crime. Err when not committing it himself. Or his usual habit of thwarting the machinations of an empire of evil aliens. But only cause they keep getting in his way, not because of some crusader cause.
Which kinda may support your point. A bit. *grumble*
* Flinx is the main character from my all-time favourite series of sci-fi novels by Alan Dean Foster, which I recommend unreservedly. He starts with just weak psionic powers but eventually ends up with a range of advantages that as a package could be viewed as making him equivalent to a super *.
You are thinking in a case where a super was the defendant, that the prosecutor might try to cast suspicion on him, because he works in the commercial sector rather than joining the military?
I’ve just caught up after going through the archives. Love the comic. However I recommend you not read it if your currently experiencing asthmatic symptoms. I laughed so hard at one point that I had my first ever web-comic induced asthma attack.
At this point you’re about 140 comics too late… I imagine there’s a massive number of our brethren now dead due to slapstick Sydney + asthma… Ah well :P
That’s it, you’ve figured it out, I’m secretly a serial killer. This is my kill room.
You’re about 140 comics too late I think- many of our brethren have died due to Sydney-Slapstick jokes… A moment to remember them… :P
On the other hand, there’s always making money the -legal- way… the private sector…after all, if you can shoot lasers from hands, it might be too deadly to be a hero [especially if you aren’t also bullet proof], but you might be useful for welding, clean energy production, or communications – why run the risk of being beaten by ARC and spending jail time, either as a villain or vigilante, when you can make bank legally? Most supers who are sane and smart would probably forgo villainy for a regular fat paycheck…. which leaves the stupid, the insane, and those who have a cause that supersedes normal desires
One question as to legal work is whether they’ll get paid a fair wage or a minimum hourly wage. Quicksilver could do about a weeks work in less than an hour, will he only get an hours pay? And if he doesn’t then won’t the normal people start to complain when the company hires supers to do all the work? Will there eventually be Affirmative Action for non-powered people?
Given the rarity of supers, they will probably command very high rates of pay for jobs to which their powers give a company an advantage. I’m not sure whether employment law would allow making a job description to which only one person fits the requirements. If not, the Bauxite Beamer would likely be employed as a “special consultant” or similar, meaning that the company doesn’t have to try to fit someone saving them the running costs of an aluminium furnace into their company pay scheme.
However, if Irn-Bro’s powers just make him strong enough to make working on a construction site easy and tough enough to bounce a girder off his head, he won’t get paid any more than a normal worker, before bonuses. He will still have to abide by applicable safety laws* and suchlike. Even if he does more work than a normal person, and thus encourages the company to employ more supers, where will they find them?
In your example, Quicksilver would probably find a job where pay was based on results rather than an hourly rate. Assuming he didn’t want to find a position more suited to his unique capabilities that he could set his own price.
* I’d expect companies (and governments) may lobby for changes in some safety and similar laws allowing exposure of an employee to otherwise illegal risks if said employee can demonstrably prove to be immune to that situation.
Wasn’t there an early reference to a flying super who worked as a mountain rescue service?
Yup, and I still don’t understand why they can’t have a reality show of him by just strapping the camera TO HIM. We have plenty of that going on in skydiving.
Actually, they could strap about four cameras to him at different views and hire support to tell him if there’s an avalanche, rockslide or cave in about to happen, or to direct him to the next person in need of assistance. They could use the reality show revenue to offset the cost of the support and tech and still cost less than a helicopter or two.
The same argument could be made about police and soldiers. Not that they’re stupid, just that there are ways to make a living that don’t involve getting shot at, but some people do it. Different strokes.
I wounder if their is a “Supertemps” (from GURPS IST) like company out there about to go public, their “Defense Squads” just lost there contract Law Enforcement angle becoming just Super S-Men, but the “Industrial” “Entertainment” and “Emergency Services” branches just got government reconciled and funded publicity by the formal revelasion of Super Powers.
Dho! Darn auto correct on tablets, last line of my previous post is not meant to say reconciled but recognized.
The hippy chick has some nice tattoos. Now I’m looking forward to seeing how Peggy’s look.
Let’s see:
First if any super goes to work for someone for a wage that doesn’t compensate him for his extra ability, then it’s his own fault. You still have the option of self employment in this country. A business license is largely optional and not hard to get anyway.
The real issue is that Government & Law = Good. This Comic assumes this, at least for the most point at this time. As long as this holds true, then all is good. What messes it all up is when that stops being true. That is a level of chaos I’m not sure this comic will delve into, so until I see otherwise, I’m taking it as a place where being Lawful Good works, at least most of the time.
Sydney is more of a Chaotic Good really. :)
I think you pronounced that incorrectly. She is CHAOTIC good.
Successful Chaotic Good requires one be good at keeping one’s mouth shut when it matters. That went south in one little bank heist. She is safer in a Lawful Good environment. They will treat her like a little sister and the boss will yell at her a lot, but she won’t get arrested that way.
Mmmm. Bacon.
Would the ARC-Welder actually be just a man with an arc welder?
The “badge and accountability” thing….
It amazes me that anyone in this day and age could have any faith in a government institution to provide accountability.
Not that there’s no such thing as a corrupt cop/judge/the whole system, but what’s the alternative? Arianna’s just towing the line that some semblance of accountability is better than vigilantes who probably don’t know the first thing about criminal law, who may or may not be certified with a firearm, and who don’t fill out any reports after webbing someone to a lamp post.
Small factual note: The US census actually comes with a legally-recognized privacy right at the level of what you get when talking to a doctor or a lawyer. Anything you put on a census form or tell a census worker while he’s interviewing you cannot be used against you in court, and all data collected are thoroughly anonymized before they are shared with any branch of the government outside the census bureau. The census bureau itself takes these requirements VERY seriously, and has protections against leaks in place that are arguably stronger than those used by the Department of Defense to protect classified information.
So yeah, census forms could plausibly have a check box for “I have super powers” without requiring supers to register themselves. And given that super powers are an interesting phenomenon worth studying in-universe, it’s likely such a box would be added sooner rather than later.
what’s an “ioxio”? Derived from Greek maybe? “Io X!” – “hail the hidden power”?
He’s the hero Gotham deserves but not the one registered to operate there.
I wonder if that stuff contains any GC-161.
So, if that guy actually meets Kevin Bacon, does he lose his superpowers forever?
Naa, it just makes him stronger!
Dunno if I didn’t notice before, or just never commented on it, but nice I Love Lucy reference. :D