Grrl Power #1493 – Buff and wax?
I’d wager Max is thinking that it might be time to have “the talk” when she gets home. With Rowan, I mean. Going on a few dates under false pretenses is usually pretty inexcusable, but there are probably some circumstances when it’s… not terrible. Like if you just entered Witness Protection, and start dating a week later… that’s got to feel like a lot of lying. I mean it is, but that’s a case where it’s at least understandable. (Although, come to think of it, you’re probably discouraged from dating or doing anything that requires you to talk about yourself a lot within the first few months in WitPro, to give it time for your new identity to time to sink in. I have no idea either way, but it’d make sense.)
“Dating if you’re a superhero with a secret identity” is probably more of a gray area. I think you’d want to subtly but fairly quickly establish their views on the militarization of police powers and related industrial complexes – at least in the Grrl Verse. If you’re in most other super-verses like Marvel or DC, you’d want to establish their views on vigilante justice. (I think the Avengers are sanctioned law enforcement, depending on what stretch of the comic you’re reading. Maybe the Justice League too? I don’t actually know. But you rarely see Batman or Ant Man giving testimony in trials.)
Anyway, my point is, if you have a secret identity and you’re dating, figure out if you’re wasting your time and theirs early on by learning about their views on your day job. And if you have an intelligence branch as part of your superheroing outfit, do a background check to make sure your beau isn’t an agent of HYDRA or a Skrull infiltrator or some DC equivalent. Or just to make sure they’re not some influencer looking for a big vlog hit.
So you figure out if you’re compatible and that you trust them, you gotta come clean pretty early in the dating process. You can’t True Lies that shit and wait till you have a teenage kid together. Even then, I’m sure plenty of people will be all, “It’s totally unacceptable to lie on a date.” And that’s a valid… desire. Probably a little optimistic, but it’s nice to hope for a more ideal world.
So the next question is… is letting a naked alien man (what, like he’s going to get his pants wet?) wash smart latex off your back in the shower cheating? Galen (and/or Gellen) is going to get a pretty good look at Max’s bare butt. That said, until she grits back up, her butt is so shiny all he’s going to really see is his own face.
Oh, look who it is in the vote incentive. The NSFW version is finally up at Patreon. Plus a bonus pic.
I think she would get in trouble for doing this. She’d mess up the… floor of the waterfall? Is that what it’s called? The receiving pool? No, probably not that. Anyway, she’d churn things up and cause a ton of weird erosion.
Since you might be wondering, Niagara Falls is about 165 feet high, so Babezilla obviously doesn’t have to be full sized. I’d say she’s about 175-180 feet tall here?
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
Definitely questionable behavior aside.
“I’d wager Max is thinking that it might be time to have “the talk” when she gets home. With Rowan, I mean.”
RIP to Rowan(‘s relationship with Max.) They can’t all work out, I guess.
People who break off things with someone for a(n understandable) lie don’t deserve to have contact with other people
I would argue your parentheses are more to the detriment of your point than the benefit, as most lies (not counting the white lies everybody tells every day since no reasonable person considers them a meaningful lie) do not have justifiable (which I feel is the more useful word than understandable in this context as I can understand someone lying about cheating but I cannot justify it) reasons and as such are the sort of thing to end relationships over, especially early/new ones.
Like, she’s a superhero and she lied about her identity to protect her secret? Sure, that’s a pretty justifiable lie, and I wouldn’t dump her for that, maybe I might dump her for BEING a superhero depending on context and what level of danger I feel I am in for being with her and a number of other factors, but I don’t think I’d do it in Maxima’s case.
But she lied about cheating? That’s two reasons to dump her. She lied about cheating in a past relationship? Dump her. She lied about her sexual history? Not a lot of situations where that shouldn’t result in a break up. She lied about going through my phone or other invasion of privacy? Dump her. She lied about some incompatible value to trick me into getting deeper into the relationship than I would have otherwise? Dump her. She lied about being on birth control? Dump her. She lied to make me miss something important to me? Dump her. And so on and on, ad nauseum.
I’m not usually the sort to jump directly to “break up” as a means of conflict resolution, but trust is the ultimate foundation of any healthy relaitonship, so if you have self respect, dumping SHOULD be on the table when that trust gets violated or broken, and there aren’t many things you can lie about in a relationship that don’t break or violate the trust.
Most mostly referring to Maxi not revealing her true identity to Rowan, but can understand why someone would believe it to be about cheating
Of course having ‘breaking things off’ on the table is a non-issue, but jumping straight to it without even talking things out? No, that is another form of control
Soon… anal only?
Good enough.
Wait, what’s this about having a talk with Rowan? What did I miss? I thought he knew Max was really Maxima, the golden superhero, or did my brain just invent that?
He does not know that she is Maxima. He only knows her as his girlfriend, Harper Lux.
Personally believe G (just like the NCIS character: he only needs a letter for a name :P ) respects the other persons’ (beings’?) choices, even if he likes to push things (truly, how do you know ‘how far is too far’ if you don’t push at least a little and give up straight away?)
People stating that Maxi is a cheat (when nothing has even happened) are morons
When I started dating the lady who became my wife, she was casually dating multiple other men. I’d call her house phone and her roommate would have to explain that she couldn’t come to the phone because she was out on a date.
Unless Max has had the “yes, we’re exclusive” talk with her boyfriend, she isn’t cheating regardless of what she does.
My future father-in-law first introduced me to someone as his son-in-law before his daughter and I were even exclusive (which I thought was a funny accident even though his daughter thought it was much less humorous).
I’m sorry but your wife was being a ho. Exclusive is the default, if you two didn’t talk about it she was cheating.
‘Exclusive’ is not the default, not even in the caveman days (that so many readers seem to believe they still are in)
Depends on the nature of the relationship, but if youve labelled yourself boyfriend and girlfriend, then exclusivity is the societal norm. Which is why you should talk about this with a partner if you don’t feel like you want to be exclusive.
Polyarmoury and open relationships are more common again these days, and theres nothing wrong with that, but when going into a relationship most people assume some level of exclusivity until otherwise agreed.
Also to clarify, it’s the societal norm of the current world and society both Max and Rowan come from, even it’s not always been the norm, that is the baseline their relationship started at. I am not making an ethical judgement of non-monogomous relationships.
Yes, as you said, when you put labels on yourself and your soon-to-be partner, part of that process is defining what exactly is involved, but it is NOT the default
And if we are supposed to rely on society to define relationships, then that is a controlling society, and it can go back to the fucking dark ages where it belongs
No, it’s just the context within which people live their lives. Society defines ALOT of norms and relationship expectations are part of that. It’s why healthy relationships require good communication to define what boundaries and expectations that you have beyond that norm. He’ll as you demonstrate, it’s required to reinforce that you expect a relationship to adhere to societal “norms”, because there’s certainly people who see it differently.
Also Default does not mean Mandatory, monogamy IS the default expectation of relationships within the society. As the majority of people within society approach relationships with that baseline. Both Max and Rowan grew up, were educated and lived a good part of their adult lives within that society. Without clarification to the contrary, both would expect monogamy from one another, or atleast not to steay from their relationship without confirming it was ok first. BUT they might well both be OK with not being exclusive and could have a happy ply or open relationship, but that would need to be communicated and would not be the default the majority of people would assume.
Also I hope I’ve made my point clear, default is just referring to the societal norm, not some sort of irrefutable human fact.
Except Maxima clearly DOES see ‘exclusive’ as being the default. Which is the entire reason she kept saying ‘I have a boyfriend’ in response to Gellen’s sexual advances. Because ‘I have a boyfriend’ is, to Maxima, synonymous with ‘I am in an EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE SO HAVING RANDOM SEX WITH OTHER PEOPLE IS OUT OF THE QUESTION.’ It’s not the same as Harem’s view or Dabbler’s view, because they would not be using ‘I have a boyfriend’ as a reason to say ‘no’ to sex with someone else. They’d just say no (if they wanted to say no).
It has nothing to do with being in ‘caveman days’ of ‘one man, one woman’ (btw, cavemen were much more likely to have one man with several women for an evolutionary biological reason) – maybe you are meaning ‘puritanical days’ which would be closer to what you’re describing.
Maxima just has NEVER said anything in comic, or based on her attitude, to imply that she’s into polyamory. If anything, her behavior would lead people to believe she’s into much more monogamous relationships, if at all, although her history is more likely thinking that her life does not allow for ANY relationship at all, prior to Rowan.
@ThatGuy said:
> I’m sorry but your wife was being a ho. Exclusive is the default, if you two didn’t talk about it she was cheating.
So much to unpack here. (Also, I find it amusing that you chose this name given the meme about “I don’t want to be *that guy*, but…”)
First, you’re calling his wife a whore. What exactly is wrong with being a whore? It’s sex plus capitalism, so which one do you have a problem with?
Second, why are you in a position to judge?
Third, it’s true that exclusive is the societal expectation, but the actual *default* is whatever makes both participants happy. That’s not me being trite, it’s literally the case; people who do not specifically talk out new boundaries will go with whatever they are comfortable with and then discuss it after they discover their boundaries aren’t a 1:1 match. The fact that you think your expectations should be imposed on others says a lot, and it’s not flattering. Maybe think about that, and see if you want to change?
What the fuck is wrong with you? Why would you ever say that to anyone? The only possible reason you would ever say that to anyone is because you want to get kicked in the mouth until your teeth are gone.
Hysterics over a fictional character being a little hypocritical and pushing the line of infidelity aside, you’re just a bad person.
I’m sorry but you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Everyone she was dating knew she was dating other people and was not sleeping with any of them. I knew she was dating other people before I met her. And before I first asked her out several weeks later.
We’re you two official yet? We’re you her boyfriend? Or We’re you also just a casual date at the time?
Because if it’s the later, then it sounds like you guys were just casual hook ups or testing the water until you got serious.
If you were her boyfriend, then that sounds like an open relationship that you were cool with.
In this case and to our understanding it’s a monogamous relationship, otherwise why would Maxima explicitly reject his earlier advances while saying she has a boyfriend.
Which either makes this potential cheating, or atleast crossing a lot of intimacy lines, unless we get clarification that Rowan has also said he’s open to her seeing other people while she’s away.
The way you describe it, you and your now-wife were not even boyfriend/girlfriend at that point. You were just casually dating. Labels like ‘boyfriend’ and ‘girlfriend’ imply a much more exclusive relationship than ‘date.’ And I think that the whole ‘conversation’ is more that once you start giving labels of ‘boyfriend’ or ‘girlfriend,’ then exclusivity ties in to that label, UNLESS you have a conversation about the boyfriend/girlfriend arrangement being an open relationship. NOT the other way around, with it being ASSUMED to be an open relationship unless you have a conversation about it being an exclusive relationship.. The whole point of the boyfriend/girlfriend label IS the exclusivity, unless otherwise stated.
@Bowman said:
> When I started dating the lady who became my wife, she was casually dating multiple other men. I’d call her house phone and her roommate would have to explain that she couldn’t come to the phone because she was out on a date.
Good for you, man! I really appreciate seeing other sensible people online; I frequently feel like the only sane man in a sea of jealous nutbars and it’s nice to know that there’s others like me out there. Also, good for you in speaking up for Max. You said what I would have said as well or better than I would have said it.
wat.
She’s in the shower being soaped up by a naked man (read the text, pants are coming off not that them staying on would change it.) that she also knows wants to f*ck her. Rowan would DIE if things were reversed.
Not all of us have a cuckoldry fetish Guesticles or a mind control fetish, yeah I remember you from the Dabbler incident(s).
She has also repeatedly stated that there will be NO fucking involved
Again, nothing has happened, but people are already jumping to the ‘sharing a cigarette’ conclusion
Alot of people take issue with the naked showering itself. Fucking or no fucking, they wouldnt be cool with their significant other sharing a shower with a guy who wants to fuck her, whether or not it happens. Alot of people wouldnt be cool with that guy seeing her naked at all.
Some people would be cool with it, and wouldnt have issues with jealous around it either. But thats the sort of thing you clear with your boyfriend before stuff like this happens and not just assume hes chill with it. Because part of being in a relationship is respecting that someone might have that sort of boundary.
Totally agree with you.
Guesticules’ reasoning feels similar to some guy telling his wife or girlfriend “Look, I know I went to a nudie bar when I said I was working late at the office and got a lap dance where the stripper grinded on my lap and I slipped a $20 in her G-string, but don’t be mad and all bent out of shape at me because it’s not like we had sex or something. Stop overreacting!”
Sure, there are some people who would be fine with their significant other doing things like that, but that would be the minority of people, by a rather sizable amount. :)
Likewise, a woman being naked in a shower and inviting a guy, who has expressed on MULTIPLE times a desire for hot soapy shower sex with her, into the shower to wash her back feels like a likewise betrayal of trust and a severe lack of respect to the partner in the relationship. Unless it’s something that’s been DISCUSSED IN ADVANCE.
I’m going to take a leap of faith and say that Maxima probably has not brought this eventuality up with Rowan before today.
Wow, you really went there?
If someone did what you said would be a cheat and a liar and and areshole
And how can you ‘clear with your boyfriend before stuff like this happens’ when it is something you never expected to happen at all?
Is Maxi expected to sit down with Rowan and discuss every possible situation? That is when you walk away because the other person has zero trust in you and wants to control every possible interaction you have with anyone
Some people are calling this cheating, because they would consider it such from their partner. That doesn’t make them morons.
Others are saying it’s out of character for Max and that she would consider this crossing a line, according to how she was presented toll now. And I think its a fair read, considering I don’t think she’d be cool if Rowan did the same in reverse.
Personally, I think its not cool to do this sort of thing behind your boyfriends back unless you are in a relationship where this sort of thing has been Greenlit. Because while she is free to do what she wants with who she wants, you don’t get to demand someone else be okay with that in their relationship and it’s gross to cross that line without giving them the chance to say OK or break things off.
They are morons for calling her a cheat before anything has even happened?
How do we know that the next panel isn’t a loud siren warning of an imminent attack or Harem suddenly *VORP*ing in to tell Maxi she is needed back on Earth NOW!!
Or basically anything that leaves G with swollen blueballs and a Maxi-shaped steam cloud
Yeah. It’s like all of the people who don’t actually communicate with their partners and just make a bunch of assumptions that they force on them are making an extra special effort out themselves today.
It’s not like the universal solution – communication – is out of their grasp, they are just afraid to grab it because it changes the status quo in whatever relationship they benefiting from not communicating with someone about.
Sad really.
People want their values to be the unquestioned default so that they don’t have to discuss them, argue for them, and possibly make concessions. Or as you suggest, exploit the ambiguity of the gap between what each person assumes, and what they’ve actually agreed to.
Max is naked in the shower, and a naked man is about to join her and touch her. It doesn’t matter where he’s going to do it, that is 100% cheating behavior.
Ugh. I’ve loved this comic for well over a decade and Max has always been such an awesome character, but nothing kills a character for me faster than infidelity. Letting a guy who’s been actively trying to sleep with her join her in the shower while she’s naked… come on Max. This honestly just makes me sad.
It’s only infidelity if they’ve agreed that their relationship is exclusive. We’ve seen them on basically three dates, though it’s possible they’ve had others off-page, and have little reason to believe that they’ve progressed to the point of physical intimacy. As far as he knows, she’s a stuntwoman, travels a lot, and might have a fling at every shoot, much like Gellen’s “We’re sailors. We’re supposed to have a different girl or guy at every port.” They’re both awkward, sure, and unlikely to actually be dating anyone else, but that’s not the same as actually agreeing to exclusively date each other. People are projecting their own preferences and values, given incomplete information.
This ^
If they’re using the terms boyfriend/girlfriend, and I believe they DID have that conversation already, IIRC, then they are exclusive by default, as that is what those labels mean in current American culture (which is the relevant culture here). Sure, back in the 1950s the term “steady” meant exclusive and as such boyfriend/girlfriend didn’t carry that meaning if the term steady wasn’t appended on, but that terminology has been out of date for many decades with the exclusivity being applied to boyfriend/girlfriend unless explicitly stated otherwise, such as in the case of polyamory/ENM. You don’t get to have the “what are we” talk where you agree you are boyfriend/girlfriend and then pull the “we never said we were exclusive” card, and even if you haven’t had the “what are we” talk, if you’re casually throwing around the labels, like Max did when she initially rejected him, then you at least *feel* that the term applies, and as such it *is* indicative of how much loyalty you actually *have* if one second he’s your boyfriend and the next you play the “well we never agreed to be exclusive” card.
This ^
:)
This and that?
Please forgive any misinterpretation, it isn’t on purpose.
Guesticules points at Torabi as a proponent of this view: There are no rules in relationships unless a couple writes their own rules.
Pander points at Psychie as a proponent of this view: Society has rules for relationships that couples would be wise to follow.
Have I got that about right? The extent of the argument over whether Maxima is cheating on Rowan with Gellen seems to me to be so great because it has struck a nerve. In a society that disagrees whether we should have generally accepted sexual mores or not, it reassures me that we can still all enjoy the same web comic.
Imo, Maxima’s character is evolving but we haven’t reached any exposition or results yet. Let Dave B. tell his story.
I’m being funny because Guesticules makes a post of ‘This ^’ with someone espousing his views, so I did the same thing. :)
Yes, because they were able to things betterer than me
Sometimes, when someone has trouble explaining their point but someone comes along and does a better job of it (sometimes even stating things they couldn’t think of) they kinda have to post something like “this ^”
Or would you have preferred “What they said ^”
Given Gallen’s situation, I wouldn’t consider him really out of line here. Polyamory is the norm for him, he’s been nothing but honest about his desires, and IMO he actually likes Maxima as a person, not just a smokin’ hot bod. Perhaps you might say he’s a bit over-persistent, and might should be a bit more cautious vis-a-vis the whole ‘truck tire vs. tube of toothpaste ‘ thing. Even there he’s an adventurer and the danger might be something of an aphrodisiac to him.
As many others note, Maxima’s ethical equation is considerably more complex. However, we can be sure that Rowan hasn’t had sex with her (truck tire, etc.); and I’m very sure she has made no explicit promises to him. So as someone else said, she isn’t breaking any rules because none have been established.
We don’t even know how many actual dates the two of them have been on. Nor do we know what discussions they have already had concerning their relationship.
Max has precious little dating experience, obviously. Cut the woman some slack! Sad to say, she may still be a virgin.
It’s mainly how she carries herself. She chastised the literal sex demon/alien for her trists then does something remotely similar. It’s why people are against what she’s doing.
Yeah, my issue is less that this is cheating. I think when they haven’t had a talk about things, it’s in the grey area and lots of people wouldn’t consider it cheating, while others would
However, the entire way Max had acted UP to this point, makes her feel 100% that she WOULD have considered it cheating, even all the conversation leading up to this, which is why it feels kinda… weird, and out of character.
I don’t judge her by my standards. I judge her by HER standards
About the only ‘chastising’ Maxi has done with Dabbles (apart from when Dabbles has tried to get too personal with her) was about no sexing members of Archon
People are against what she is doing because they live to hate on everything Maxi does
They wouldn’t even be going on this hard if it was Sydney getting a back wash from G (while Frix was elsewhere on the ship), in fact, they would probably be making lewd jokes about it
Sydney’s relationship with Frix is very explicitly polyamorous. Max has made the claim that her relationship with Rowan is monogamous, and is now acting directly counter to that claim.
Also, I honestly can’t think of a single other specific example of something I would seriously criticize Max for. Yeah, her attitude is a little strong sometimes, and she can be a bit holier than thou, but every character has some flaw or another (flaws you like are still flaws, there are a lot of character flaws I very much enjoy reading, like Sydney’s tendency to go on tangents and hyperfixate on the wrong thing), and by and large I have a generally high opinion of her character and her decision making, so I, at the very least, most definitely don’t “live to hate on everything Maxi does” and absolutely WOULD take similar issue with Sydney doing the same thing IF SHE WERE IN A MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIP, which she is not.
Seriously, this comment is ridiculously disingenuous and is such an absurd strawman. Do you really have to blatantly disrespect the people you disagree with about a comic strip?
Please, show me the page where Maxi explained her relationship with Rowan
Never said that you were doing any of that, simply said ‘people’ without calling anyone out specifically (largely because like to see who do take it personal)
Using her relationship with Rowan as an implication that no, she does not want shower-sex, is pretty much a solid indication that she views the relationship as monogamous. The phrasing, “I have a boyfriend” as it’s been used here, carries with it an implicit, “And thus am not available for sexytimes.”
If Maxi didn’t mean it that way, then her communication skills apply vacuum pressure to Brobdingnagian Equus africanus asinus phallus.
Many “people” are reacting to the character inconsistency. While I wouldn’t necessarily call this cheating, it absolutely is dismissive of Rowan, and he would be rightfully offended by it, in large part because she didn’t discuss it beforehand.
Nope. Maxima has chastised Dabbler even when she wasnt trying to get too personal with her.
“You find STAIRS stimulating.” Or her stance about naked cookie-baking, or apron-only-wearing cookie baking. Neither of which had to do with Dabbler trying to get personal with Maxima, or sexing other members of ARCHON. There were other examples if you’d like me to make a list, complete with page links. You know I’d be able to do that, right?
Also I should mention I don’t hate Maxima. Like… at all. And I was one of the people arguing AGAINST people who were calling her a Mary Sue, since she is, by no definition of the word, a Mary Sue. I just happen to be honest about when she does something that’s character-sabotaging. I was like this when she almost destroyed the bridge while pursuing Sciona, without taking into account possible damage if her shot misses (or in this case, ricochets) (which is something she literally warned Sydney about previously in the pre-Vehemence-fight restaurant). In short, I call out Maxima for her faults, while still loving her as a character. Specifically because I DONT see her as a Mary Sue, despite being incredibly powerful.
Also, the situation with Sydney is not remotely the same as with Maxima for one very specific reason which I’ve previously mentioned elsewhere – SYDNEY DID NOT ALREADY HAVE A BOYFRIEND. And definitely not one who she has constantly used as a reason to NOT have sex with other people. Sydney was hesitant about sex with Frix because of being awkwardly shy about such things, and possibly because of a negative self-image sexually (something Maxima does NOT have about herself – Maxima KNOWS she’s insanely sexy looking). Also, Sydney does NOT do well with polyamorous stuff, as was evident when that goblin engineer propositioned Frix in front of her and she was NOT taking it well, despite TRYING to take it well. And Frix intelligently realized this and explained to the goblin engineer that Sydney IS NOT USED TO THE SORT OF RELATIONSHIPS HE HAS BEEN IN, and it would be very cruel to Sydney for him to start ‘canoodling’ someone else right in front of her when he was on Earth in a relationship with her (and also Sydney can cut apart a terran tank in 3 seconds flat).
Whole lot of discussion about whether or not it’s cheating and if it’s out of character for Mac.
I think there is a real problem with characters being a stereotype instead of actual people.
People make mistakes. People make poor choices. They behave out of character for themselves – enough that it’s literally a saying people use. People grow. People change. Based on things they learn, things they are exposed to, their poor choices and their good choices.
I think the era of mass media and deep character analysis and categorizing has really made this tendency to reduce characters to stereotypes that must fully match and express core character types 100% of the time has really harmed fiction and people’s ability to engage with it.
Thank you for posting this
So your position is that it’s not reasonable to criticize a character’s mistakes because mistakes are realistic? Personally, I make a point of treating my character judgements as though they were real people, anything for which I would judge a fictional character on grounds of morals, is also something I’d judge a real person in the same way for. I don’t care whether this is a mistake, or a lapse in judgement, or a result of her learning something about herself, she literally JUST claimed to be in a monogamous relationship, and I am fairly certain she and Rowan have agreed, on panel, to label each other as boyfriend/girlfriend, which carries an expectation of monogamy unless explicitly state otherwise, either one of those by themselves makes this an ethical/moral violation which does directly lower my opinion of Max’s moral character, something I had previously held in high esteem.
Does this ruin the character for me? No, not yet. Is this likely to make the drop the comic? Not even close. Does this lower my opinion of the comic as a whole? Nope, only Max’s moral character. I am very disappointed in Max’s choice here. Honestly, I’d probably judge a real person making the same choice in a similar context much more harshly because that’s a real person affecting another real person with their lack of consideration, Max has the shield of fictionality that makes it easier to divorce my emotional reactions from the situation.
Thank you for posting this.
:)
I read a lot of fiction in my youth. In my 30’s I switched to reading history. So maybe I am out of touch, but when did the mass media start forcing writers to use characters that are 100% stereotypical? Where do I find the list of approved stereotypes? What is the enforcement mechanism?
There is no enforcement mechanism, it’s more a side effect of endless YouTube/social media analysis becoming widespread and affecting the way people talk about and discuss characters. The need to get attention by hype and controversy tends to flatten nuance. More complicated discussion has difficulty getting critical mass of engagement the way that more shallow and sharp criticism does, so it doesn’t get the runaway spread.
Well toss Max to the curb big G. She is not worth it or you buddy.. here I thought she had morals.
Why is max so shiny these last two pages? Is that just from the water?
She’s naturally this shiny, she grits/dusts/whatevers herself up.
“So the next question is… is letting a naked alien man (what, like he’s going to get his pants wet?) wash smart latex off your back in the shower cheating?”
I don’t think we can know. It is for sure intimate contact. But did Max promise fidelity to Rowan? How would she feel if she saw him in the shower with a naked woman? I don’t think this has been covered yet in-comic, and maybe not in-universe.
So maybe there is a different “The Talk” she needs to have first. What do she and Rowan think about their relationship and where it’s heading? I would straighten that out before I started spilling classified secrets. “I have a government issued secret identity. By the way, how much do we like each other?” seems like the wrong order.
If Rowan wants a monogamous commitment, then Max has some decisions to make.
Fidelity, monogamy is the norm.
Anything else you should discuss before the 2nd or 3rd date.
People’s desire for hedonistic open relationships of various styles is fun to visit in writing, but you’ll feel different when you are trying to protect your lineage.
When I was dating, I only ever dated one person. Lots of first dates (Ok, first date attempts, being real here.) but as soon as I found someone who was interested in the full game, and we where on our second or third date, I canceled out of every single first date/date attempt I had scheduled, full stop.
Now, I love me a good harem fic as much as the next hormonally infested sophont.
But fiction is fiction and real life is for keeps and for protecting lineage.
No, monogamy is not the norm, at least, it wasn’t until fairly recently
You talk about ‘protect your lineage’, that’s the whole point of open relationships: spreading you ‘lineage’ to as many people as you can
Monogamy has been the norm in the West for at least as long as Christianity has been the predominant faith in the hemisphere. And much more relevantly, that includes the entire history of American culture (as in the country, not gonna make claims about the indigenous tribes that were here pre-european colonization or the cultures of other countries on the continent), which is the relevant culture to this discussion.
I don’t have anything against polyamory when it’s done ethically and responsibly, and I have several friends who are poly, but to claim that monogamy has at any point not been the norm in the US is just flat out absurd, and I would say that using “fairly recently” to refer to a scale of time greater than two centuries is disingenuous. Like, is it recent relative to the scale of the entire history of the human species irrespective of specific culture? Sure, I can accept that, but be real, that is not a reasonable reading of the claim “monogamy is the norm” in the context of this discussion.
> Monogamy has been the norm in the West for at least as long as Christianity has been the predominant faith in the hemisphere.
*sigh* One more thing to blame it for…
Actually until fairly recently, monogamy within a functioning civilization IS and has always been the norm. At least for women. For men, monogamy has only become the norm recently… depending on what you mean by recent. Recently as a species? Definitely. Recently as civilized societies? Probably. And mostly for evolutionary biological reasons. Women tended to stay with one man for protection, and because humans take a REALLY LONG TIME before they are self-capable to survive without a parent. Whereas men tended to be with many women for raw propagation reasons.
Why has it been different for men and women? Because women take 9 months to have a baby. Men can impregnate MANY women within the scope of that time. From a biological standpoint, it makes sense for men to have sex with as many women as possible, while it makes sense for women to stick with one mate, at least where the long-term survival of the species is concerned.
Norms change a lot when civilization occurs. And change even more once birth control is created. That being said, monogamy most definitely is the norm in most civilization, at least for women, and has been the norm for several thousand years, ESPECIALLY in Greco-Roman and Western civilizations, even b efore religious institutionalization by groups like the Christian Church and the abolition of concubinage. Monogamy not being the norm is the exception, not the rule.
To get to a point where polygamy was the norm, you’d have to go back to ancient babylonia, assyria, and persia. And even then, polygamy was only the norm for MEN, not women (ie, the Code of Hammurabi alowed MEN to take a secondary wife if the first wife was unable to bear children, or in the Achaemenid Empire, Kings and upper-class noble men were allowed to have multiple official wives and concubines, mostly to secure large bloodlines and cement political alliances), or Imperial China, where there was an official system of one husband, one primary wife, and multiple secondary consorts (ie, concubines), or in the Rig Veda in ancient India.
In none of these cases though was polygamy ever the norm for women. At best, it was a (rather sexist) example of biological evolutionary pragmatism, where men got to have multiple wives, and women had one husband.
Why are you, of all people, making this a separate issue depending on gender?
It’s okay for men to sleep with multiple people, but it’s not okay for women?
Because you brought up the false statement that monogamy is a recent thing. It isn’t, EXCEPT when it involves men having multiple partners – NOT women.
Your statement was false, so I am bringing up how it’s false, by using historical facts. In no way am I saying ‘it’s okay for men to sleep with multiple people, but it’s not okay for women.’ And you’re being INCREDIBLY disingenuous to read what I wrote as saying that.
Yup, definite strawman argument attempt on your behalf. AGAIN.
If anything, what I’ve argued is that, as far as the history of all civilization is concerned, monogamy is the norm, NOT polygamy. Until VERY recently. The exact opposite of what you stated.
Monogamy may be the socially acceptable standard… But how often have humans actually practiced it? Infidelity seems to have been pretty common throughout human history. So if I were looking at actual behavior, I would say that the norm is for people to claim to be monogamous, and then not actually practice it.
“Monogamy may be the socially acceptable standard… But how often have humans actually practiced it?”
For the overwhelming majority of human civilization. And for essentially ALL of human civilization if you are referring to monogamy among women to men, rather than monogamy of men to women (where there have been areas of polygamy in civilizations where men had multiple wives, or concubinism).
“Infidelity seems to have been pretty common throughout human history.”
True, although hard to prove or disprove that particular element. But the fact that people can practice infidelity actually supports the fact that monogamy is still the socially acceptable standard, since infidelity is NOT ‘socially acceptable.’
The very word itself comes from the Latin word infidelitas, meaning unfaithfulness or faithlessness. Not a positive aspect whatsoever.
Fidelis = Faithful, loyal, honest, trustworthy, virtuous.
In- = NOT. The opposite of.
A societal norm is not something which the society shuns as being BAD.
So no, infidelity is not a societal norm. It’s a bad thing that happens in society, despite the societal norm.
“So if I were looking at actual behavior, I would say that the norm is for people to claim to be monogamous, and then not actually practice it.”
This feels more anecdotal than something that can be actively proven. But for the sake of argument, we can steelman your position and assume it’s provable.
However, e ven if it was provable, it is still proving that monogamy is the standard.
Sort of like how the civilizational norm is to not murder people, but a LOT of people have murdered other people throughout history. That does not make murder the civilizational norm. :) It just means there’s a norm that some people have not lived up to.
In short, TL;DR:
Monogamy is the socially acceptable standard, and thus the civilizational standard (until VERY recently). People engaging in infidelity is not the civilizational standard specifically because it’s not socially acceptable, and has, in fact, always been seen as a bad thing, since the very creation of the word. Civilizational standards are perceived of as good things, both historically and by people living in a civilization, so that a civilization can remain stable. The existence of someone falling short of the civilizational standard only serves to reinforce that the civilizational standard exists in the first place.
Basically the idea that people can engage in infidelity is the exception that proves the rule.
People keep saying “She and Rowan haven’t said they’re exclusive” as if monogamy isn’t the default setting. If they haven’t had “the talk” yeah she’s 100% cheating.
why is she cheating if she’s only accepting help with her back in the shower? Only Harem would be able to wash her own back by standing in front of herself.
It is cheating because that is not her best girlfriend of a life, he is a guy that spent the best part of last week trying to get into her pants. Also, if SHE had found Dabbler or Cora, naked, washing Rowan’s back in the shower, she would have punched at least one of them to the other side of the planet. Possibly both…
‘Best part of last week’? You mean, one day, maybe five minutes before she put him in his place?
SCRUBBING-BRUSH-ON-A-STICK DANGIT PEOPLE!!!!! :)
They exist!
they do exist right? I’m not just having a hallucination, am I?
What the hell is a brush on a stick? Is that like a jalapeño?
Lot of people have those for cleaning the toilet
Just wanted to let you know that at least one person thinks they understood that reference.
Do you see a scrubbing-brush-on-a-stick?
If you do, maybe you should see an eye-specialist because you clearly are having a hallucination (maybe a psychiatrist as well)
:)
One would think they’d at least be able to Mass Fab one.
Sure, let Maxi halt her shower in the middle while G goes and prints out a loofah-stick
Just because they have the capacity to produce one doesn’t mean they have already done so
Oh? And when does that kick in? After the first date? Second? Even if monogamy is the default assumption for most people, a lot of people date casually until they find someone they decide to pursue seriously.
I’d agree with you on this logic actually, except that Maxima’s behavior up until this point implied that she does view her relationship with Rowan as exclusive. Which is why she had kept turning down the offers of sex by saying ‘I have a boyfriend.’ If she did NOT view the relationship as monogamous and exclusive, why bother giving the excuse of ‘I have a boyfriend’ as a reason to NOT have sex with Gellen?
Maybe it had something to do with simply saying ‘no’ wasn’t good enough, so maybe she thought if she mentioned her boyfriend it might get through?
You’re… sort of making my point for me.
Maxima seemed to be acting like saying ‘I have a boyfriend’ is an even STRONGER statement of ‘no’ than just saying ‘no’ alone would be. Which again supports the idea that Maxima thinks of the label of ‘boyfriend’ and ‘girlfriend’ as it relates to her and Rowan as an exclusive and monogamous arrangement.
Otherwise, what would be the point of saying ‘I have a boyfriend’ if you don’t think the implication is ‘therefore, since I have a boyfriend, you coming into the shower with me should be off-the-table, since I consider having a boyfriend to be an exclusive thing where multi-person naked shower time is concerned.’
Again, you are assuming that G coming into the shower to scrub Maxi’s back is going to result in sex between them
I kinda think it’s been established that Max isn’t too clear on the dating thing. I agree that the whole scene is awkward, and I think that’s down to the author’s own views, but that this whole arc is about Max loosening up. The general progression in the comic is for characters to become more open sexually. This is Max deciding that maybe her views are out of step with not only her social circle, but the whole galaxy.
I do think it’s funny that I can’t remember anyone ever coming to the comments to praise Max for her “prudishness”, only to criticize her, and now that she’s loosening up, people are popping in to say how much they liked her before, and how disappointed they are in her now. Sure, comments attract complaints more than praise, but it does feel like women can never win sexually: they’re either too active and available or not enough.
“I kinda think it’s been established that Max isn’t too clear on the dating thing.”
The link you posted felt more like Deus was trying to keep nebulous whether his gift to her was to woo her or as a business partner, so that either way, he can argue that he was not overstepping any bounds, more than that Maxima simply ‘isn’t clear on the dating thing.’
“I do think it’s funny that I can’t remember anyone ever coming to the comments to praise Max for her “prudishness”, only to criticize her, and now that she’s loosening up, people are popping in to say how much they liked her before, and how disappointed they are in her now.”
I’m assuming you’re talking about someone else, since I’ve been quite consistent in my views that I like Maxima as a character, while also pointing out when she does something either arrogant (too many to count, honestly, although her arrogance is usually quite warranted, but it’s almost led to several losses, against people like Vehemence and Supermassive and the Super Husk/Supermannekiller), hypocritical and sidestepping blame (the bridge incident with Sciona), or poor judgment and inherent unfairness (how she was being subtly threatening to Krona, quite unfairly and hypocritically, and now the whole betrayal of Rowan dealio here, although I don’t know what the next comic will have in it that might change things).
“it does feel like women can never win sexually: they’re either too active and available or not enough.”
I think there’s a significant amount of space BETWEEN ‘being an uptight prude’ and ‘showering with a naked buff alien studly man who has several times propositioned her for sex minutes beforehand.’ For example, how she as acting in the PREVIOUS comics (1491 and 1492) where she was NOT being an ‘uptight prude,’ (not that I think it’s prudish to choose to NOT have sex with other men while you’re in an exclusive relationship), while also not inviting the porn star-worthy buff space guy to do her back for her with both of them buck naked. Also pretty sure that if Rowan was doing the same thing with another woman, Maxima would feel justifiably INCREDIBLY betrayed.
“they’re either too active and available or not enough.”
Sorry, this is a TERRIBLE argument you’re making here. There’s a difference between ‘being too active and available’ and infidelity. Maxima is clearly ‘active and available’ with Rowan judging from their picnic together, and judging from how Maxima needed Dabbler to adjust the collar for her, implying that there was at the very least some heavy petting, if not her getting outright laid with Rowan. What IS a step too far is doing stuff like that with someone who is NOT her boyfriend, given Maxima is not polyamorous like Dabbler, Cora, or Harem are. And those three at least are up front in advance about their polyamory – that’s why with them, it’s not going to be considered infidelity, since they are all quite admittedly in open relationships, not exclusive ones.
Well that’s a let down from max. thought she had some integrity.
If they talked about it and agreed to be monogamous, then she is cheating, because her words told me that she thinks this is sexual.
If they haven’t, then because in modern dating one should not assume that to be the default, she is not, and should talk now that it has come up.
It’s that simple.
I think there are at least three separate issues that people are conflating here.
One is just judgments about sexual behavior. Whether or not Gellen is being a sex pest, whether or not it’s appropriate for a man and a woman who are not partners to shower together. Or what kind of relationships are allowable, or people actually engage in. The author’s views, and the common views across the galaxy in his comic’s universe, do not align with what some readers consider normal or acceptable. I expect these readers will either continue to be shocked and offended, or post some long-winded comment about how some thing or another is the final straw, and they’re dropping the comic.
Two is feeling “betrayed”, that this is “out of character” for Max. I think “out of character” would have been her agreeing to let Gellen scrub her back without three pages of arguing with him about it. I think the author views the characters differently than the readers do, that Max has a better understanding of Gellen’s character, trusts Cora’s judgment about her crew, and that this is supposed to read as playful banter, rather than an ADHD dissertation on how men and women feel about penis size. I think this is supposed to be character growth, and Max developing socially and sexually, which has been a recurring theme in the comic. So of course she’s going to behave differently! But I think for it to be perceived as “character assassination” requires forgetting a lot of the details of the events in the comic, and treating Max just as a stereotype, as a prudish, sex-negative feminazi. I think we’re just seeing another side of her that’s been repressed by her military role and defensiveness from being raised in the sexually-confused American cultural environment. But it’s not like we haven’t seen her being playful or sexual before. Or being a hypocrite before.
Three is making assumptions about the nature of Max and Rowan’s relationship, that they’re a firmly established couple that are exclusively dating each other. We’ve only seen them interact a few times, but they do refer to each other as boyfriend / girlfriend… And that means different things to different people, but most people assume that their understanding and values are universal, even when all evidence suggests otherwise. Max may be realizing here that they haven’t actually discussed how serious they are, and that they should have that conversation, rather than just make assumptions. She’s used “I have a boyfriend!” as an argument several times now, and, faced with a response that basically amounts to “And?”, she’s had to think about what’s being encapsulated and assumed by her asserting it as an argument. She’s unpacking her own biases in a different context, and deciding to explore.
Lots of people here seem to think that this is cheating.
And… I suppose I get it, but I think you all might be lacking in reading comprehension if you all think that the comic isn’t A: critical of overly puritanical viewpoints based on modern society, and B: Capable of treating this as a serious plot point.
Also “Hey come into the shower, space person who is immediately outside, and remove this sticky space polymer that you are far more familiar with from my back, and I will remind you that I recently one-tapped something way bigger and stronger than you so don’t touch anything I haven’t given you express permission to touch” is very much a reasonable statement in this situation. Max is a phenomenal super but even she might not be able to fully reach her own back, much less be certain if she got all of it. Sure she could get Gallen to fetch one of her subordinates but they might not know what to do and also Gallen is *right there*. If she keeps this purely professional, I don’t think she’s done anything wrong.
Whether Rowan agrees will remain to be seen in character. But also, please remember that we havent seen anything of their relationship outside one night at a bar and 20 minutes in a fire station. We know *nothing* about their relationship outside of that.
See? The poor dude is a firefighter AND about to become a doctor and he STILL fails to meet a woman’s standards. MGTOW!