Grrl Power #974 – Death by a thousand chips
I know what the title of the page is, and this isn’t technically chip damage, but Max is exploring the deterrent factor.
That or she’s just going to make him mad.
Vehemence’s line on this page makes me think of stuff like Klingons. They’re all “Rah Rah War!” and “Glory in battle!” but what they really mean is “Rah Rah Winning War” and “Glory in Victory!” They have to tell themselves its honorable to die in battle because the number one cause of death in Klingons has to be violence, but no one actually wants to die in battle, they want to win. (Until they get old and are worried about their legacy/place in Suto’vo’qor.)
I always think about that when I’m playing games like Doom and I’m chainsawing an imp in half. I’m like, you guys totally revel in chaos, violence and suffering. How is this not what you want? I’m helping you! And then I dance in its innards.
Vehemence gains power from getting beat up, but he then has to spend some of that to heal. He also gains power from just being near violence, and that doesn’t cost him anything. It doesn’t cost him to punch someone, but it does if he puts a few thousand joules behind it, so it’s a balancing act. Really, his biggest weapon is the violence aura. If he gets enough people in its area, then he garners a net positive, and as we saw with his first appearance, if its a bunch of super-powered violence, then it’s like he’s standing at the foot of the Hoover Dam with leads attached to his nipples.
In a good way.
There’s a kickstarter for Gold Digger Gold Bricks #3 and 4 out, which collect issues 51-100. These have been printed before but are now out of print, and this kickstarter is likely the last chance to ever get them. There’s also an option for hardbacks, which would be pretty cool since they’re some phat ass books. I think #4 is about 3″ thick.
I think quite a few of you are familiar with Gold Digger, but if you’re not, the short version is, what if Rick Sanchez and Indiana Jones were one person and that person was a nerdy girl and her sister was a were-cheetah and their other sister was a half-clone of them and their parents were a Weapons Master from another dimension and a Sorcerer Supreme and they constantly fought everything from time traveling dragons to living spells to the things that came before the dinosaurs to mechanized Leprechauns and one of them marries a guy who gets drafted into a government agency that honestly could probably take down Arc-SWAT… eh… I don’t know. It would be a hell of a fight. Also it’s funny. Anyway, that’s my synopsis of Gold Digger.
Honestly if not for Gold Digger, I don’t think I ever would have done Grrl Power. It was just about the only comic I read for nearly a decade after I lost interest in the constantly resetting storylines of Marvel and DC. I read plenty of manga, but they’re different because they’re usually shorter, contained stories, and not endless sprawling non-sequitur nonsense like the big three comics wind up turning into.
I digress. Check out the kickstarter, and if you pledge, there’s an add-on you can get that’s the first 100 issues in PDF form.
Tamer: Enhancer 2 – Progress Update:
Started on what I think will actually be the last chapter. I may split it into two if it goes long, but it will still be the final “act.” Doing a fight scene in a Tamer book that isn’t against dinosaurs involved coming up with a bunch of Eye-Q skills for everyone involved, and right now I’m stuck trying to figure those out. I mean, I could have Sam and the ladies klonk everyone on the head before the bad guys get a chance to break out their powers, but that probably doesn’t make for the most thrilling action scene.
August’s vote incentive is up! I know, that thumbnail isn’t so enticing, but I promise, the rest of the picture is worth it.
Nude version is up at Patreon.
Double res version will be posted over at Patreon. Feel free to contribute as much as you like.
SuperheroThey're super, thanks for asking!
Meatspace ComicSeriously these are awesome. Check 'em out!
Not UpdatingNo longer updating or only updates sporadically, but definitely worth reading.
SeriouslySeriously you guys. If you like Grrl Power the check these out.
"Mature"Mature subject matter and occasionally something explicit but usually safe. Can't guarantee the ads are safe though.
Dongs Ahoy!Full frontal and backal. Lots of skin, sex on some or all pages, explicit or otherwise.
I once built a character like Vehemence in Champions 4. It was Ares god of War. Version 4 decoupled energy absorption’s absorbing/empowering effects from its damage mitigating effects enabling me to give Ares a parasitic damage absorption aura on area effect without protecting his opponents, allies or even himself for that matter.
The absorption aura took a lot of points to build so he started off fairly weak but the idea was he would get stronger the longer a fight lasted.
Sadly my build was never tested. It was done in advance for a gaming convention event and the GM never made it to the con.
I feel ya. The number of builds I did that never got played in Champions was immense.
But it was fun. There was something immensely satisfying to sculpting the numbers to make a build operate on paper just like the concept in my head.
Oh snap, thanks for the heads up on the Gold Brick news!
If I recall correctly, it’s the first 199 issues of Gold Digger that are available, rather than the first 100.
I read through some of Gold Digger. Sadly there is one story that we cannot finish reading because it is intertwined with Ninja High school. The story about how dogs became the rulers of society and enslaved humans as their pets. And that one mad scientist dog with his assistant/pet Bengie who were directly responsible for the outcome. But unfortunately Ninja High School is not available to read online so I could never see how the story ended. I wish comics didn’t do that sort of thing unless the whole story was intact. It’s just ****ing annoying otherwise.
For the next vote incentive, I humbly request Kevin / Dabbler / Hoover nipple play. Thank you.
Second.
It would be VERY funny to me if this happened but with the president instead cause you didnt specify
‘
TaftHoover in a wet t-shirt contest’ is the key image here.I personally want to see Maxima’s plan of attack fail and Dabbler come in to save the day with the tickle laser instead.
And Dabbler “forgot” she had the tickle laser set on wide beam so both Maxima and Vehemence got a well deserved humiliating defeat.
I’m good with this outcome. :)
Max: “AHAHAHA! Dabbler stop! AHAHA! You are hitting me!”
Dabbler: “Sorry Max but I got to keep firing to keep Vehemence down. I wouldn’t do something like this to you unless it was absolutely necessary.”
M: “Liar! At least stop filming me you pervert!”
D: “Awwwww…”
Dabbler: “But you’re the one who insisted on a uniform camera for the after-action reviews! ‘How would we be able to improve if we couldn’t tell what happened?’, you said!”
M: “Liar! At least stop filming me you pervert!”
D: “I can’t do that either! We need this film for training purposes!” *increases tickle meter to level 11*
D: “I’m not a pervert! I’m a scientist! This is necessary for my essential research. For science!”
“Next on a special episode of Mythbusters….”
Mythbusters, the succubus version.
Nutbusters.
What is the purpose of this fight?
It’s not feeding violence to Vehemence nor is training for Max. She just wants to hurt him.
This is just torture by now.
It’s Max testing her theory that certain kinds of attacks will be a net loss of Kevin, rather than a net gain.
The theory was propably created with assistance from Dabbler.
She knows Tantric Energy and Magic. She could think of something like that.
And it is usefull in case she ever learns something else.
How many torture victims in your world can just say “I give up this fight” or “I will not fight max” and be perfectly fine for the rest of his life?
Meh, it’s just selective plot armor/power set bullshit. The author himself pointed out that Keven had just been knocked through a cliff without showing much if any damage. So exactly why is he being tortured here? Why do two fingers to his forearm or a broken nose hurt him more than flying at speed into a solid rock cliff face? Why does his nose even break, when his skull or any other bones didn’t from any prior attack?
It’s because the author wants him to be tortured, and wants us to suspend disbelief and accept that Maxima managed to figure out a smarter way to beat Kevin, not that Maxima’s attacks are actually any better or smarter than Black Redline’s or Hiro’s attacks.
or what he is being hit by now has significantly higher resistance and can deliver more pounds per square inch into a focused spot than a rock.
Per official power scalings, maxima is indeed much stronger than Hiro and redline. Rocks are also pretty much equivalent to drywall in super fights
For drywall, read “cardboard boxes” ;-)
You truly are an idiot
The reason why Kev was punched through a mountain with no visible damage, is because the violence involved allowed him to heal any injury, whereas with Maxi’s attacks, the level of violence involved is less than the damage received
And it’s to show Kev that Maxi has a way to stop him if he gets out of hand… again
As he himself said, Maxi is taking all the fun out of violence
I mean.. he certainly acts the part of an angry fairy.
Not really. You forget that Max is leagues above everyone else so far with the unaliased agent coming in at a not as close as we probably think second. The answers to your questions are easy. Max is way stronger, and concentrated damage will always hurt way more than all around damage. Getting thrown into a cliff? Lots of mass equalizing the impact, thus making it hurt less. Why would getting fingers jammed between the bones of your forearm and forcing said bones to separate from the wrist? How can you not imagine how much more painful that would be!? Broken nose trumps a punch to the gut. Damn near all of that is trumped by a dislocated knee. Honestly? Pretty much common sense.
Unaliased agent?
Ren. There have been various suggestions flying around for what his ‘Super Name’ might be, but none of them are official yet. Oberon evidently favours “Black Redline”.
V already got 5+ fights worth of his nutrients. He just wants the rematch now.
The buildup with the others was powering up Kevin. Appearantly he was wasting away without violence
Still i dont buy it. Megaton punch also hurt and inflict pain (good punch also is pin point). If more power put in to hit him =more violence, grapple or ticle should be better option or elemental attack fire water or air dont have emotions they just are or just electro attack him to fire up his pain receptors.
It’s not just what he is hit with that counts, but also the origin.
He won’t get anything out of natural lightning, but lightning from Jiggawatt or even from a weather manipulator (Storm from the X-Men) aiming for him would juice him up.
Still if broken nose or kneecap is “unfun” how about skin burn, acid burn or seizure from electroschock or even papercut between fingers. It seem V like to only watch violence not be target of violence. I assume he cant feed himself by beign violent so better if two people beat themselfs than one people beat him
> It seem V like to only watch violence not be target of violence.
He seemed to be having fun getting beaten up by Jabberwokky, Math or Ren – clearly when the violence rewards outpace the pain, that’s fine with him.
> I assume he cant feed himself by beign violent
Author comments on this page imply he can, just if he supercharges his attacks, he has to spend power.
“I assume he cant feed himself by beign violent so better if two people beat themselfs than one people beat him”
Actually yes, he can feed himself by being violent.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-265-in-summation/
To quote Vehemence’s description of his own power:
“Violence. One of the most pure, primal forces.
Attack me? Makes me stronger.
Attack 3 dozen scrubs I rounded up? Makes me stronger.
I attack you? STILL makes me stronger.
That’s right colonel, all of your impressive powers are worse than useless against me.
They say superheroes solve all their problems with their fists, so imagine how excited I was when I turned on the TV today. It was like vehemic Christmas!”
Which is why I don’t think Maxima’s ‘solution’ to dealing with Vehemence will work, or at least it SHOULDNT work without contradicting what we already know about Vehemence’s powers. She’s trying to still solve this fight with her fists.
there is no contradiction there, just a mis-estimation. He assumes he gains more than he spends. But if a way is found to cause him to spend more than he gains, it still works.
What Mqaxima is doing is the low ball version of just blowing his head off before he can resist it. Causing greater pain than what he BELIEVED he could gain strength from. Basically a he has to spend power to heal, but the amount of vehemic energy gained from the act and emotions *Dabbler compared this power to her own only focusing on a different emotion and act*, is less than he thought he’d get or can be at a loss *like say maybe use a spell that hits the nerves while being cold and emotionless about it, he’d get a little energy but possibly less than it takes to properly recover.
this is what Maxima is testing right now, to see if this will work.
“there is no contradiction there, just a mis-estimation. He assumes he gains more than he spends. But if a way is found to cause him to spend more than he gains, it still works.”
I don’t see how what she is doing now is different than anything she was doing before, based on ‘gaining more than he spends.’ The only difference at all is that before, he was a lot more powered up. But in that case, ANY massive attack will do the trick, and has nothing to do with what type of violence she’s inflicting upon him.
“What Maxima is doing is the low ball version of just blowing his head off before he can resist it.”
That’s literally not what she was describing as her strategy. She was saying ‘minimum juice for him, maximum deterrence.’
But that’s the problem, this is NOT minimum juice, because it’s not even remotely minimum violence. It’s absurdly gruesome violence, in fact. Which defeats the whole point of what she said.
I’m sure that at his CURRENT level, she can hit him hard enough to knock him unconscious because he does not yet have the levels of power necessary to prevent that from happening. But again, that has nothing to do with her stated strategy, which is definitely NOT what she’s actually doing, since what she’s doing is, once again, incredibly, horribly, absurdly violent. :)
The difference is that, with her current technique, most of the time she isn’t doing anything violent. She’s just waiting. He can’t get any energy from that.
She barely deflects his punch, thus he barely gets any energy from that.
The times when she does do something are extremely brief strikes that cause more pain than damage, thus are also low value to someone who feeds off of violence.
It produces a psychological negative feedback loop where he no longer wants to attack and his power slowly ebbs away.
Pretty smart, if you ask me.
“The difference is that, with her current technique, most of the time she isn’t doing anything violent.”
She HAS been exceedingly violent. I don’t know how anyone can claim that what she did wasnt violent. But I did have a little epiphany about how this MIGHT work and still be consistent with what we know of Vehemence. If Vehemence’s violence intake is based only on ‘instances’ of violence, regardless of the level of violence, then I could see how this would be an effective strategy, since she’s only used three ‘instances’ of violence, although two of those three instances were EXCEEDINGLY violent. But if the intensity of the violence doesnt matter (except that as he gets stronger, it gets more difficult to actually have anything register as physical pain to him, hence about as violent as a baby hitting you), then all that matters is the number of individual instance of violence.
Like… a unitarian view of violence, where each instance has a value of 1, regardless of severity, as long as it can register as ‘violence’ (ie, one person intentionally inflicting physical pain, harm, damage, or injury’ on someone or something else)
“The times when she does do something are extremely brief strikes that cause more pain than damage, thus are also low value to someone who feeds off of violence”
This part of your argument I disagree with, because you’re acting like intentional infliction of physical pain is not a part of violence, when it’s actually the very definition OF violence.
“Pretty smart, if you ask me.”
Unless Vehemence’s violence-meter is based on amount of violence on a very unitarian scale, disregarding how violent an attack actually is (because Maxima’s attacks are being horribly violent actually), then this would NOT be a smart idea actually. Even if it’s therapeutic for Maxima wanting to beat on someone. It would bite her in the butt in the end.
The point is, the amount of violence applied here is less than the amount of pain delivered
It’s like the difference between hammering a nail into someone’s temple, and slowly pushing it in
And Maxi is working out ways to stop Kev without vaporizing his head
If she keeps doing this when he is back in the White, then she is just torturing for her own pleasure
“The point is, the amount of violence applied here is less than the amount of pain delivered”
This sentence seriously makes no sense. Violence is dependent on the amount of physical pain or damage or harm inflicted. If you do something intentionally that causes extreme pain…. that’s not ‘less violence’ than the amount of violence.
I will once again give the very simple definition of violence.
Violence (noun) –
1) behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.
2) the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation.
Hurt (verb) – cause physical pain, harm, or injury to.
I’m trying to figure why people are thinking otherwise and making this argument when it makes no sense.
“It’s like the difference between hammering a nail into someone’s temple, and slowly pushing it in.”
….HOW are either of those things not insanely, incredibly, absurdly violent?
“And Maxi is working out ways to stop Kev without vaporizing his head
If she keeps doing this when he is back in the White, then she is just torturing for her own pleasure”
She can literally stop Kev by just putting him in a joint lock or choke hold and choke him out, as Sydney already explained.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-285-power-down/
“When someone tells you they get stronger from being attacked, you choke them out. Superhero 101, it’s rookie!”
Maxima seems to be doing this because she’s enjoying some schadenfreude and revenge of physical pain directed at the person who almost murdered her. But except for that idea I mentioned about violence being unitarian for Kevin, none of what she’s doing should logically actually lower Vehemence’s power level at all.
It comes down to how much force is applied
“It’s like the difference between hammering a nail into someone’s temple, and slowly pushing it in.”
Okay, seeing how that analogy is confusing for you, let’s change it slightly: It’s like the difference between hammering a nail into someone’s temple, and securing them over an exposed nail and letting gravity (and the weight of their own head) push the nail in
Maxi is also showing Kev that anyone, even someone much much weaker, can defeat him
How much energy (or V-power) do you think is required to heal broken bones? More than the violence used to break the bones in the first place
It’s the same damn thing that Sydney used with drowning him! Force him to extend more Vower then he gains
Fairly sure schadenfreude doesn’t apply when you are the one inflicting the misfortune
“It comes down to how much force is applied”
If by force, you mean effort, then no – Violence has nothing to do with how much effort is given. Case in point, it doesnt take much effort for Peggy to shoot him in the eye, but it’s extremely violent.
If by force, you mean the literal physics of ‘mass times acceleration’ then what Maxima did was VERY high levels of force three times, once to pierce his wrist with her fingers, once to separate his bones in his arm, and once to shatter his nose.
Either way, there’s a flaw in your reasoning.
The only way I can find that Maxima’s strategy would make ANY sense is if amount of force doesnt really matter, just the incidents of violence itself. ie, a unitarian view of violence.
“Okay, seeing how that analogy is confusing for you, let’s change it slightly: It’s like the difference between hammering a nail into someone’s temple, and securing them over an exposed nail and letting gravity (and the weight of their own head) push the nail in”
I…. still don’t see how either of those are not insanely violent, since you’re the one who put them in this nail deathtrap, not gravity. If someone just happens to FALL on a nail, then THAT’s not violent. But when you’re the one doing it? That’s violence.
Once again, the definition of violence, since Torabi said I was being inconsistent, so I’m repeating the same thing over and over again to show I’m very consistent. The definition of violence is the intent to hurt (ie, cause physical pain), harm, injury, or damage to another person or thing.
If it’s done by an accident, that’s not violence. Because there’s no intent.
If it doesnt cause physical pain, harm, injury, or damage, it’s not violence. No resulting violent act.
If you tie someone up over a nail and then let them drop onto a nail (I’m guessing you cut the rope so that gravity gets to do its thing?), gravity did not cause the injury to that person. You caused the injury to that person. It’s like someone who makes the joke after you push someone off a building and say ‘I didn’t kill him, gravity killed him.’ Gravity is just the tool. You’re the perpetrator of the violent act. Might as well say that Ren did not inflict violence on Vehemence earlier – the cliff face did, so the cliff face has no intent, so it wasnt violent. Which is obviously flawed logic.
The only possible difference I can see is if one causes more pain than the other, but since I’m not feeling like doing physical experiments to see which hurts more, since I’m not a sadist and don’t wanna go to jail for recreating the movie Saw in real life, I’m just going to assume both are very, very, very violent.
“Maxi is also showing Kev that anyone, even someone much much weaker, can defeat him”
It doesnt show that because:
1) At this point, Maxima is a LOT stronger than Vehemence.
2) There’s a certain point of strength variance at which martial arts maneuverse don’t really help that much, especially when dealing with people who are nigh-invulnerable and superstrong. Sydney is not going to be able to do what Maxima did, for example. She does not have the strength levels to pierce through his arm and separate his bones with her fingers like the Jaws of Life. She also could not, at his current state, shatter his nose. If you recall he’s already too strong and invulnerable for Jabberwokky to hurt him anymore, judging from the kick to his head that did absolutely nothing, five strips ago.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-969-gravity-assisted-motivation/
So what Maxima is doing here does not make sense from that reasoning either.
“How much energy (or V-power) do you think is required to heal broken bones?”
It takes about 4000 newtons of force to break a typical human bone. And Vehemence is hardly a typical human.
On the other hand, bones are actively knitting themselves when placed together, as part of basic human healing. Usually wihtin a few days without any active outside interference, other than getting a healthy intake of calcium and Vitamin D in the system.
So I’d say that it takes a LOT less effort to super-heal a bone than it does to break it, let alone break it in the gruesome way that Maxima’s been breaking them.
“It’s the same damn thing that Sydney used with drowning him! Force him to extend more Vower then he gains”
It’s not, actually. What Sydney was doing was having everyone grapple him, and the drowning was to force him to burn V-juice since he couldnt breathe. THAT is minimal violence inflicted on him, maximum use of V-juice by him. What Maxima is doing is maximum violence, moderate V-juice used by him. Based on what we know about Vehemence, this should be actually making him stronger and more dangerous, not less so. Unless, like I said, it’s based on a unitarian view of violence as individual instances, regardless of how violent the actions are.
“Fairly sure schadenfreude doesn’t apply when you are the one inflicting the misfortune”
I’m pretty sure it doesnt matter who is inflicting the misfortune, at least according to the definition of schadenfreude.
scha·den·freu·de
/ˈSHädənˌfroidə/
noun
pleasure derived by someone from another person’s misfortune.
I’ve checked and I haven’t seen anything saying that the pleasure can’t be by the person inflicting it. I’m guessing that means people who are sadistic torturers might sometimes experience schadenfreude from the misfortune of their own victims.
Pander: “Unless Vehemence’s violence-meter is based on amount of violence on a very unitarian scale, disregarding how violent an attack actually is (because Maxima’s attacks are being horribly violent actually)”
Well, A) it clearly is based on something like that, as you should be able to see if you could get over your self-importance for a moment and actually read the comic, and B) no, it’s not “horribly violent” since there is little permanent damage, mostly just temporary pain. Your OPINION that it is “horribly violent” is nothing more than that, an opinion, and one clearly not shared by many other people, including the comic’s author.
Please stop insisting that everyone accept your OPINION as though it were FACT, when it very clearly is NOT.
Besides, what do you want the author to do? Rewrite the comic to suit YOUR sensibilities? Get over yourself.
Have a nice day!
HiEv:
First I’d like to commend you on your bravery of not responding to a post to me until several days after the comic has gone to a new strip. Truly you are a courageous person. I’m assuming that in real life arguments, you wait until the other person has left the building then say “OH yeah?!”
“Well, A) it clearly is based on something like that,”
It’s not CLEARLY based on something like that. But for Maxima’s strategy to actually work, it would HAVE to be based on something like that. Before thinking it was ‘something like that’ (ie, unitarian concept of violence), most people were thinking that it was based on intensity of violence instead, because of how Vehemence was saying the 30 super brawl was even better than the LA race riots.
“as you should be able to see if you could get over your self-importance”
First ad hominem attack because you can’t argue your points, so instead you make insults.
“and actually read the comic,”
Ad hominem attack #2.
Also, if you ever bothered reading my posts ever, I tend to not only quote past parts of the comic, I also post the links, and then reference which panel I’m talking about. I even often point out where DaveB said a certain thing or another in his commentary.
But that’s okay. Insult me some more after people have already stopped reading the comments on this particular strip, o brave one.
“B) no, it’s not “horribly violent” since there is little permanent damage,”
So let me get this straight, since you are clearly far more wise than I am, on top of your amazing courage. You’re saying that if I was to jam some needle nose pliers into the base of your inner arm, piercing the skin and going between your radial and ulna bones in your arm, then spread the needlenose pliers apart enough that thoe bones will CRACK loudly, then TWIST the needlenose pliers around after cracking the bones…. then smash your nose in with my fist hard enough to shatter the cartilage and send a geyser of blood spraying out, before kicking you in the knee to bend it backwards…. that’s not violent?
Dear god man, I would hate to know what you DO consider to be violence! Was what Cora did to that hooded guy just a little tap? Was Peggy shooting Vehemence in the eye with an antimateriel rifle round a gentle breeze perhaps?
What Maxima is doing to Vehemence is something that would DEFINITELY result in permanent damage, if not for the fact that he’s able to perfectly heal his injuries no matter how grievous they are if he has vehemenic energy to burn.
Not to mention, where on Earth have you ever learned that for something to be violent, the damage must be PERMANENT??? If I go over to you, take a bat and bash our leg then your collarbone, and you wind up in the hospital in a few casts but after a year you’re healed, by your …. innovative definition…. you’re saying I did not commit any violence upon you.
My, no wonder you are so brave! Nothing is violence to you, apparently.
By the way, if it WASNT violent if it doesnt result in permanent damage, then the entire restaurant fight doesnt make ANY sense, because he healed from every violent act that they did, and every other person, save for Jiggawatt and Heatwave and the fire guy who Sydney flung into the ground repeatedly offscreen, healed 100% from their injuries. So I guess the restaurant fight didnt have much violence either, from your reasoning.
See how little sense that makes?
“mostly just temporary pain”
So if I punch you in the face (I’m enjoying these thought scenarios btw a bit too much) until you get a blackened eye, then it’s not violent because it’s just temporary pain? This is an astounding thought process you have. I could go on and on with more examples which would involve inflicting a bunch of non-violence upon you (which somehow I expect you’d think was definitely psychopathic violence if I actually DID it in RL, since it would be), but hopefully you get the point of how what you’re saying makes no sense whatsoever.
“Your OPINION that it is “horribly violent” is nothing more than that, an opinion,”
Nah, it’s really not an opinion. For violence, that’s just a completely accurate definition. For the ‘horribly’ part, that’s just me using an adjective so I don’t just keep repeating the word ‘very’ or ‘extremely’ instead.
“and one clearly not shared by many other people,”
1) I wasnt aware accuracy was based on a popularity contest
2) Quite a few people do think what Maxima has done is violent. Including the author. I just can’t understand the reasoning he’s giving for why it would be a good STRATEGY unless it’s based on a unitarian view of violence, which it turns out it MIGHT be after all. The author has been keeping that vague so far it seems, and open to intepretation for some reason. Probably because it was going to give away that her strategy wound up NOT working after all in the following strip.
“Please stop insisting that everyone accept your OPINION as though it were FACT, when it very clearly is NOT.”
I haven’t been insisting that people take my opinions as fact. I only argue that people should take the literal definitions of words, which I have linked to and quoted verbatim a LOT… as fact. Because that’s what facts are, rather than opinions.
My opinion is that Maxima’s strategy is not a good one, because at the time, none of us knew if it was going to be effective or not. And then I gave theories on how it COULD be effective, and reasons on why it probably would not be.
“Besides, what do you want the author to do?”
I wouldnt object to him starting to sell a Deus X Machina full sized pillow. Or a collection of Grrlpower Funko figurines. I’d buy them all.
“Rewrite the comic to suit YOUR sensibilities? ”
Ad hominem attack #3. Why do you think DaveB even allows a comment board in the first place? Do you think it MIGHT be so that he can get feedback from his readers and have them discuss and argue things in a civil manner, perhaps? (ps – civil tends to mean not flinging insults repeatedly when you can’t come up with a good argument) I don’t want him rewriting anything. I’m sometimes giving constructive criticism, sometimes giving praise (because the artwork and detail to how powers work is very well done, as well as how he deconstructs the superhero comic genre), sometimes showing my adoration for the pinnacle of humanity, Deus (all praise Deus amen), sometimes teaching people very basic things about law and linguistics, and sometimes making guesses and theories about what I think will happen in the next strip. And sometimes I just quip. Sometimes I do a combination of those things.
You are taking this way too seriously.
“Get over yourself.”
Nah, I like myself as is. I’m pretty neat-o.
“Have a nice day!”
It’s weird but I’m reading that as you not actually wishing me a nice day. More like how Fez on That 70’s Show says ‘Good Day!’ then snaps afterwards ‘I SAID GOOD DAY!’ before storming off.
Rewrite the comic to suit YOUR sensibilities? Get over yourself.
Vehemic energy is pretty undefined.
There are a lot of things that go to make up violence. If it’s a psychic thing like lust, then his charge is all about the desire to fight – the rage, the anger, the outrage, the fear, the abandonment of self-preservation in service to a cause, etc. ie, the psychological state.
Max isn’t going there. She’s remaining calm, considering her actions almost clinically, not raging or avenging or even considering it as a contest between herself and V. She’s just testing her understanding of his weakness and it’s nothing personal.
On the other hand, if it’s about the energy involved, she’s using force, but absolutely minimum energy. She’s not tanking his punches and grounding all that force, she’s dodging/deflecting. She’s not striking with enormous energy, she’s going for pain points and applying the minimum force necessary to make an attack work. She’s not flinging concrete pillars around, she’s doing Krav Maga. dirty-fighting moves that normally don’t take a lot of strength.
But it’s NOT undefined. It was definitely defined. Both Vehemence and Dabbler defined it.
The really weird thing is Maxima already HAS a strategy that WOULD work, and that Vehemence even told her would work, if he didnt already have ‘power to burn’ to counter it.
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-270-options-dwindling/
She is testing a way to fight in the theoretical case that she had to fight an already amped up Kevin. Or anyone similar where they have mobility options that defeat simple “fling Into sun” tactics
“She is testing a way to fight in the theoretical case that she had to fight an already amped up Kevin.”
For a Kevin who’s already amped up to the point where he was at the restaurant fight, this would not be remotely effective for several reasons. First, he’d be a lot more invulnerable (as shown by how an anti-materiel round to his EYE didnt even do anything), he’d be a LOT faster, and he’d have ‘power to burn’ to do new powers on the fly, like being able to prevent him from being lifted and growing and … ka-pants… and violence auras, etc.
“Or anyone similar where they have mobility options that defeat simple “fling Into sun” tactics”
It seems that grappling and arm/joint/wristlocks and other holds to prevent him from being able to move would bea FAR better tactic at Maxima’s level of strength, or defense until someone ELSE can use a non-lethal, non-painful method of stopping him, like ideas Dabbler might have to invent (tickle laser? force field around him? orgasm ray so he’s too preoccupied to keep fighting?) if she’s truly considering strategies which involve stopping him with ‘minimum juice given to him.’
ALthough yes, fling into sun is a good tactic, although that would involve killing Kevin, which seems to be something they’re trying to avoid if at all possible. They’re the good guys, after all. Killing is a last resort.
Good points. But… the main reason they’re doing this is because Kevin needs vehemic energy to survive, right? But Max is fighting him in a way that she clearly believes will give him maximum pain but minimum energy. Add to that the fact that he’s nowhere near the power level he had when they last fought, and where (as you pointed out) Max’s strategy wouldn’t have been nearly as effective, and it seems clear that there’s another reason why she’s doing this.
Revenge, plain and simple.
She’s obviously enjoying hurting and humiliating him immensely here, and there’s a twisted logic to it. Max is used to being untouchable, to be better than anyone. Arrogantly so, in fact. During the entire run of the comic we’ve seen only one time when she actually met her match, and it was Kevin. Now she has a chance to establish her superiority over him, by wiping the floor with him, while he’s much weaker than her. I mean, just look at her! Max is clearly loving hurting and humiliating him! What interests me most is whether anyone will call her out on it.
“She’s obviously enjoying hurting and humiliating him immensely here,”
Maxima has admitted to Sydney that she’s a fan of schadenfreude. :)
Maxima have a always been a bit of a arrogant asshole. With a heart of gold yes, but still, she is not a nice person.
Is any of them? And that’s especially including Sydney
To be fair, Sydney feels really queasy when she sees some of the more violent people she knows go hog wild on their enemies, like Maxima and Cora.
Some people can multitask.
Kevin is there to get a dose of Vitamin V. He’s also there to be a sparring partner for the members of ARC-SWAT. At the same time, Maxima is trying to find different tactics that work on him, or people like him. This is both so if they fight someone or something else with similar powers, they’ll have multiple strategies to try, and in case they have to fight him again. Also, letting him know that they have the means to stop him may discourage him from trying to break free.
Assuming there can only be one reason is foolish.
Being grappeled in a drowned position made him “burn energy faster then he got it.”
So there is a difference – and there can be a net-negative.
Maxima literally said she’s testing out a new fighting style, she doesn’t want to grapple him.
Correct. This is testing if maximum damage vs minimal force needed to cause such damage.
Think implosion. You don’t need as much explosive to do the same trick in removing a building.
My favorite Klingon line is probably “today is a good day to die.” Said by Warf many a Time.
I do think “You’re taking all the fun out of violence!” is in the running for “funniest line in the whole comic to date”.
I think that line has a long way to go to compete with ‘Do they make merkin bald caps?’
For me, at least, it required too much explanation to be funny. I mean, is merkin really a common word in the average person’s vocabulary?
What about poor Mathias’s questioning? :)
Or Math’s reaction to it.
“What? What am I missing? Is something happening in the women’s locker room? Is it sexy?
….. are you laughing cause of how sexy it is?”
Also the trick Varia, Heatwave, and Jiggawatt played on Mathias later with keeping him locked out of the exercise area. :)
Come to think of it, I think Mathias is almost always involved in the funniest lines that I’ve seen. :)
Like #92 https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-92-thats-ok-heat3wave-you-can-try-again-later/ Many funny lines involving Math in this page.
I thought it was hilarious when later he said ‘Eeeee! story time!’
I am not copying the text. This had me rolling:
https://www.grrlpowercomic.com/archives/comic/grrl-power-32-oh-snap/
You wouldnt be capable of copying it anyway, you’re not a 4th dan swearing black belt like Sydney is. :)
“How is it possible for you to suck the fun out of everything?”
“I am a authority figure. That ability came with my job.”
Xinchub, Schlock Mercenary, Sunday February 29, 2004
Well, at least Archon made sure that Kevin has stretchy pants while he’s working with them…
So, serious question. Cat Woman or Cheetara, who is better looking and why?
Analysis Paralysis: WHICH “cat woman? There have been at least six actresses playing the live-action versions of the character, and i have no idea how many different artist’s renditions of the comic book versions of her there are, so could you narrow the field a bit for us? THEN we can probably give you an answer that means something worthwhile to you, while Cheetara only has two cartoon versions (that i can find) and if they ever do a live action then Mila Jojovich has expressed interest in being cast…
Cheetara has 3 cartoon versions if you include Thundercats Roar.
Fortunately, I think you are not including that, and are only including the original and the 2011 remake, so I’m granting you +1 internet.
But if you were meaning the original and Thundercats Roar, I’m afraid I have to give you a -4 internet instead.
My brain only has 90’s Batman the Animated Series Cat Woman in it and 80’s Cheetara.
There was a DC Animated movie short about Catwoman that would probably knock 90s Batman TAS Catwoman out of the running if you watch it. :)
I think it’s the same voice actress but I havent checked.
No Eartha Kitt? Shame on you! SHAME!!!
She’d be… 95 next January.
But surely in the context of “Catwoman as portrayed by…”, the comparison would be to her as she was at the time rather than as she is now.
Cat Woman for the masochists and Cheetara for the furries.
i dont know if anybody ansewred this already, but do you think kevin has a taunt ability (as in the ability to make all attackers focus on him and abandon other fights)? and if he doesnt, do you think he would ever pair up with some super whose ability is basically enhanced Backpfeifengesicht?
“i dont know if anybody ansewred this already, but do you think kevin has a taunt ability (as in the ability to make all attackers focus on him and abandon other fights)?”
I think his ‘special’ violence aura probably could do something like that but why would he want to, since it can also make them fight each other, and then he gets the same power from it without getting hurt at all.
I just had a thought about how this might make sense to me. At least if I’m going to ignore a few things which are going to still nag me in the back of my mind. I’m really really trying to figure this in a way that would be consistent with what we already know about Vehemence.
Maybe Vehemence’s powers, being fueled by violence, are based on individual INSTANCES of violence. Where it doesnt actually matter the level of violence, just that there’s violence itself. Each instance of violence is one dose on his Violence-Meter, no matter what the actual level of violence inflicted upon him or on others is.
Which is why he’d like things like soccer riots or the LA Race Riots. There were just so MANY individual instances of violence happening one after the other. All over the place. Like he could get 20,000 doses of violence in a very short period of time then.
Soooo…. even though what she’s doing is absurdly violent, if you take each instance of violent actions as ‘1 dose of violence’ then she’s only actually given him 3 doses of violence. Meanwhile, Detla might have given him MORE doses of violence, since she did a lot more individual instances of violence, even if it was far less violent compared to Maxima.
ie, this is actually still a really bad plan, but it’s better than her continually beating on him, which is her normal plan.
Still the best plan would be something like grappling or holds and locks and choke-outs (like Sydney said).
I think I prefer him to be something more chaotic and powerful. Something you can’t really defeat or control, just contain like Hulk or Godzilla. Which admittedly would make it really stupid to play with fire like they are right now.
Yep… but I’m just trying to reconcile Maxima’s strategy not being incredibly dumb (playing with fire) and actually having a chance of working with how Vehemence’s powers are known to work. Because all the people who are incorrectly (and a little worryingly) claiming that what Maxima is doing is applying pain without violence, when it’s actually INCREDIBLY VIOLENT PAIN being inflicted.
If his power isnt based on some sort of ‘unitarian’ view of violence regardless of how much pain is inflicted, then yes, it’s really stupid and playing with fire. Because what you described Vehemence as is very in line with how he described himself at the restaurant fight.
I’m just saying the unitarian theory is the only possible thing I can think of which is not outright contradicted in the comic. :)
I can’t argue with that.
Perhaps V is using his psychic powers on the team. They have good reasons to want to see him hurt and humiliated. Especially Maxima. He just have to play along and feed their bloodlust until they start to make bad decisions. Kevin is smart and knows how to play the long game.
How exactly do you know that about Kevin?
I’d say he seems like a very impulsive person, which almost got him killed.
I dunno. I think the restaurant fight took a fair deal of planning to set up, rather than being impulsive. Plus he almost succeeded, and would have won if not for Sydney’s actions and plan.
He had to put at least a fair deal of planning into it to find all those supers, most of whom even the government had no idea about, manipulate things so Vektor thought he was the one making the plan, get suspicion off him during the massive brawl, etc. It doesnt really scream ‘impulsive’ to me.
ARCHON could unofficially hire him as a advisor. A few hours of analyzing tough problems in exchange for X amount of violence. Then again they would probably not want him to know too much about them and their methods and agenda.
Yeah, Vehemence isnt really someone that I think is safe to give too long a leash, given what he’s already tried to do. Plus he’s not just a dumb brute – he actually does plan things and is able to sus out people’s powers (like he did with Anvil’s powers). So… giving him too much intel on Arc-Swat’s inner workings might be more problem than benefit for Archon.
I can see him being honestly helpful to ARCHON though. He is a evil villain yes, but he doesn’t have any personal grudge against them. In fact he probably like them because they can give him good fights and challenges.
“I can see him being honestly helpful to ARCHON though.”
Yeah I guess. In the same way that Lex Luthor can be helpful to the Justice League in times of crisis. But I still wouldnt really trust him to not turn on them as soon as he thinks it’s more convenient for him. :)
The plan itself was impulsive. He could have gotten a far more consistent diet of vehemic energy by simply joining the team, instead of risking death at all.
It was not the most effective plan for long term vehemic energy, I agree. And what you said would DEFINITELY have been a much better plan, not to mention LEGAL.
But it wasn’t impulsive. Impulsive means acting without forethought or planning. He definitely thought a lot about what he’d do. And he put a lot of planning into it. And if not for Sydney, it would have even WORKED, plus made everyone fear him if he had successfully murdered Maxima, since it would be very unlikely that anyone else would have been able to stop him at that point.
Or the more simple explanation; his violence scales with the power being thrown around + injury.
Of which Max is doing little of compared to her first fight.
And they already know grapples work, Max said she wants to try something new.
Interesting theory on incident count vs effort involved, but it doesn’t seem consistent with V’s behavior (or entire presence in the comic). If he got the same powerup from flicking someone’s earlobe or a single spitball as he did from Max grinding him through the pavement with a reinforced concrete pier, he’d be hanging around elementary schools, not organizing super brawls.
For someone who can fly, the stance that Maxima is taking in the last panel is kind of silly.
I think she is just showing off. Maxima have a bit of a ego.
It’s… a classic martial arts pose (just be glad she’s not doing that thing with her hands)
The pose makes just as much sense for someone who can fly as it does for someone who can’t. It’s recoil from the attack, and setting up for another kick.
Speaking of dealing pain without equal measure of violence: capsaicin, dab that on your tongue and you will swear someone poured undiluted acid, but looking in the mirror and it will barely even be red (well, redder than a tongue normally is)
That’s basically what Maxi is doing, except instead of pain without damage, it’s damage without violence
What Maxima is doing is not remotely like putting a dab of capsaicin on Kevin’s tongue. What Maxima is doing is damage FROM violence.
Also, just so you know, capsaicin does cause damage in addition to pain, so the analogy needs work.
Yes, but the damage is greater than the level of violence applied
Why is this concept so difficult for you to understand?
They seem really caught up on the fact that *all* acts of a similar nature are equal in worth, unless I’m misunderstanding them.
Like being shot with a shotgun is equal to being shot by a paintball gun or rubber bullets because all of them involve shooting.
Or using a hammer to hammer a nail in to a board is the same as using someone’s face to do it, because you’re hammering a nail in to a board.
“They seem really caught up on the fact that *all* acts of a similar nature are equal in worth, unless I’m misunderstanding them.”
Pretty much, yeah. I’m trying to reconcile why Maxima would think this would be an effective strategy when, from everything we’ve seen from Vehemence during the restaurant fight and now, this should be an AWFUL, incredibly dumb, and reckless strategy to use. UNLESS Vehemence treats all acts of violence as equal in worth. Ie, Unitarian view of violence.
Thank you for understanding what I’m trying to explain. :)
“Like being shot with a shotgun is equal to being shot by a paintball gun or rubber bullets because all of them involve shooting.”
Sort of, yes. At least until Vehemence no longer gets injured at all from the rubber bullets or paintball gun because he’s gotten too powerful, at which point they’re going to have to go with more dangerous ordinance. At least, if his powers are treating violence as unitarian.
Oh, there’s the problem: you think being shot from a paintball gun is the same as being shot from a shotgun
We are done here, all of your counterments are invalid
“Oh, there’s the problem: you think being shot from a paintball gun is the same as being shot from a shotgun”
Guesticules, cmon you need to read the entire series of posts on this.
I said that for a UNITARIAN CONCEPT OF VIOLENCE. Which would be the only way that Maxima’s strategy would actually work, which is when each instance of violence, regardless of what the violence is, is taken as ‘one dose’ of violence.
You would understand this, G, if you bothered to read my post more carefully. I specifically said “At least, if his powers are treating violence as unitarian.”
Because if violence is treated normally, by severity, then Maxima’s strategy is outrageously dumb.
“We are done here, all of your counterments are invalid”
1) Counterment is not a word.
2) We’re not done because you’ve ignored a key piece of context in what I said. Which you tend to do when you’re trying to strawman other people’s arguments. You tend to ignore parts of posts in order to try to change the post into something that won’t make sense, for lack of the thing you’re artificially removing. It’s very disingenuous of you, G. Bad Guesticules, bad.
“Yes, but the damage is greater than the level of violence applied. Why is this concept so difficult for you to understand?”
Because your sentence makes no sense, and isnt in line with what we’re actually seeing in the comic or have seen in the past in the comic with Vehemence.
It also makes it seem like you don’t understand what the word violence means. Which I’m assuming you should since you’re an intelligent person.
Violence is about the intent to hurt (cause physical pain), damage, injury, or harm another person or thing.
Comparing the amount of damage to the amount of violence is to act like one is not the direct element of the other. Plus it doesnt make sense even if I was to steelman your argument and pretend that they’re two different things completely separate from each other, because what she’s doing here is insanely violent AND doing a lot of damage, but the intent that she has to cause violence is, if anything, GREATER than the amount of violence she’s caused, at least with the nose. The wrist thing is both gruesomely violent both in its intent AND its application. So overall it’s going to be a sizable net gain in violence for Vehemence.
Maxima’s. Plan. Is. Not. Well. Thought. Out.
Unless, as I also have repeated, Vehemence’s powers work by seeing violence as individual instances (a unitarian view of violence), REGARDLESS of the level of pain/damage/harm/injury inflicted, so long as there is SOME pain/damage/harm/injury. Which is why they had to stop using Jabberwokky after Vehemence was no longer being affected by he attacks at all – there was no longer any pain/harm/damage/injury to him, so it wasnt violence anymore by Vehemence’s violence-o-meter.
I think it’s fair to also classify violence by the force used – hence, Maxima using as little force as possible reduces Vehemence’s gain. This is kind of supported by the comic, because it explains why Vehemence is interested in fighting supers, who hit harder but are also more durable, so if it was only about harm, there wouldn’t be much benefit there.
However, I do also think that the other factors you mention should play a role too, so I’m actually expecting Vehemence to come out in the plus on the next page, although he might be questioning whether is was worth it.
“I think it’s fair to also classify violence by the force used – hence, Maxima using as little force as possible reduces Vehemence’s gain”
Here’s the problem with that reasoning:
What are you meaning when you’re saying ‘force.’
If, by force, you mean effort, because what Maxima is actually using is minimal effort, not minimal force in a physics sense, then saying minimum effort is minimum violence would make no sense, since it’s also minimum effort for someone to squeeze a trigger on a machine gun, but it can cause a LOT of violence from that minimum effort. And as we’ve seen when Peggy fired an anti-materiel round into Vehemence’s eye, that was QUITE violent.
If, by force, you mean the actual physics definition of force, then Maxima is acutally using a HUGE amount of force – it just isnt much effort for Maxima because Maxima is incredibly powerful to begin with. So, again, it’s a lot of violence still for a lot of force.
“This is kind of supported by the comic, because it explains why Vehemence is interested in fighting supers”
It brings up too many problems with this strategy actually working for Maxima though.
Now, if in the future pages it turns out it DOESNT work for Maxima, and Vehemence actually gets a lot of vitamin-V from this, then I agree with you.
If in future pages it turns out it DOES work for Maxima, then the only rationale I can see that makes ANY sense would be that Vehemence’s violence-o-meter doesnt care about the actual level of violence, just that each instance of violence is treated like ‘one dose’ of violence. ie, a unitarian concept for violence. Because that’s the only way this strategy would actually work while still making Vehemence’s previous fight make any sense with any sort of consistency.
And if it’s a unitarian concept of violence, then it still makes sense why he’d seek out supers. Because violence REQUIRES, from the definition of violence, there to be a result of physical pain, injury, damage, or harm. And since Vehemence gets more and more powerful with more and more violence happening, normally there would be some point where he ‘tops out’ because at some point of violence inflicted on HIM, it won’t hurt him anymore. Also, for his violence aura making others attack each other, supers tend to have higher levels of endurance and general toughness, so they can keep fighting a lot longer than people in a soccer riot or something, before they’re too injured to keep fighting.
“However, I do also think that the other factors you mention should play a role too, so I’m actually expecting Vehemence to come out in the plus on the next page, although he might be questioning whether is was worth it.”
Yeah. We’ll find out in the future pages. Right now most of what we’re arguing or discussing is conjecture. But it’s a comic nerd argument and conjecture is a big part of that when discussing an ongoing storyline. :)
> If, by force, you mean the actual physics definition of force, then Maxima is acutally using a HUGE amount of force – it just isnt much effort for Maxima because Maxima is incredibly powerful to begin with. So, again, it’s a lot of violence still for a lot of force.
On absolute terms? Yes. Relative to what Maxima would put out normally? No. And the harder Vehemence is fighting, the more power he consumes – if he wants to take on Maxima he might get a lot of energy, but he also uses up a lot. Especially since she’s making him spend a lot on healing. So if she minimizes the force factor, she decreases his income – potentially below the break-even point. Or maybe not, but this is a matter of degree, of numbers we we can’t see summing up one way or the other. Nothing where we could confidently claim inconsistency.
> And since Vehemence gets more and more powerful with more and more violence happening, normally there would be some point where he ‘tops out’ because at some point of violence inflicted on HIM, it won’t hurt him anymore.
Vehemence doesn’t need to be attacked himself though. He can just hang around and bask in the violence, like he did before Vekter and Opal tried to retreat. He’d get plenty of power from normal people being hurt.
> Also, for his violence aura making others attack each other, supers tend to have higher levels of endurance and general toughness, so they can keep fighting a lot longer than people in a soccer riot or something, before they’re too injured to keep fighting.
The toughness is usually counteracted by the strength though, and I haven’t seen anything suggesting many supers having endurance beyond fit muggles. He’d get more acts of violence from a riot simply as a matter of quantity, because there can be thousands of people putting it in.
What’s more, he has a violence aura that let’s people keep fighting who’d otherwise be out cold.
So if a super punch hitting a super isn’t worth more than a normal punch hitting a normie, there’s no point to setting up a super fight, especially given the target he paints on his back for ArcSWAT.
And Maxima’s onslaught back at the rumble was only a handful of attacks, yet he gained a pretty big boost, so I don’t think the unitarian hypothesis is supported by the evidence.
> Right now most of what we’re arguing or discussing is conjecture. But it’s a comic nerd argument and conjecture is a big part of that when discussing an ongoing storyline. :)
I fully agree, I was making an explicit prediction after all. However, we need to be aware of when we’re just guessing. Like I said, I’m epecting Vehemence to gain, if less quickly. But I can’t complain about inconsistency if it turns out not to, because all I have is unsupported intuition trying to quantify fictional metaphysics.
Separately, since it’s not really relevant:
> And as we’ve seen when Peggy fired an anti-materiel round into Vehemence’s eye, that was QUITE violent.
I don’t think we’ve seen that – we have now idea how much energy Vehemence got from that as opposed to the subsequent pounding by Maxima.
Voyager:
“On absolute terms? Yes. Relative to what Maxima would put out normally? No.”
It really doesnt matter if it’s relative to Maxima’s higher capability – Vehemence is not at his higher capabilities either, and just because Maxima can dismember a guy with minimal effort does not mean it wouldnt be extremely violent. Maxima is one of the most powerful supers on Earth, so her ‘minimal’ violence is often going to be more than most people’s maximum violence capability, including supers. :)
“Especially since she’s making him spend a lot of healing.”
How is that ANY different than their first fight, other than the amount of supers who had already powered him up beforehand?
“Vehemence doesn’t need to be attacked himself though. He can just hang around and bask in the violence, like he did before Vekter and Opal tried to retreat. He’d get plenty of power from normal people being hurt.”
Yes, I know. I mentioned that already. But until he did the ‘force other people to fight each other, not just the people they’d normally fight’ thing, there would be a point at which one side or the other would be unable to continue fighting, and then the only person left to fight is him, which brings me back to my original point.
Mind you, this is just me trying to make Maxima’s strategy make sense in the first place. Because currently it does not UNLESS violence is taken on a unit-by-unit basis instead of severity of violence. I’m trying to steelman an argument for Maxima’s strategy, which I consider to be pretty dumb in the first place.
“So if a super punch hitting a super isn’t worth more than a normal punch hitting a normie, there’s no point to setting up a super fight, especially given the target he paints on his back for ArcSWAT.”
Like I said when I came up with the hypothesis, there are still a few nagging problems in the back of my head about even this rationale. You just mentioned one of the big ones :)
“I don’t think we’ve seen that – we have now idea how much energy Vehemence got from that as opposed to the subsequent pounding by Maxima.”
I just think shooting someone in the eye with an anti-materiel round from a high powered rifle is pretty violent. I think if i asked 100 normal people (who were not trying to defend Maxima’s strategy by trying to claim intentional infliction of grievous pain is not violence, which admittedly baffles me), I’d get 100 people agreeing with me.
Sort of like …. many of those same people had a problem with what Cora did to Chunky McSalsa because what she did was absurdly violent, even though it took her almost no effort or time to do so. Many of those same people are now trying to say that, because Maxima put little effort into it, it’s not violence, just intentional infliction of pain. Despite that ‘intentional infliction of pain’ -IS- definitionally violence. :)
I don’t remember anybody arguing that the amount of effort required had any relationship to how violent an action was, or the amount of power vehemic energy it produces. When people have said force, they meant force, not effort. Considering how fixated you are on the meaning of words, I’d think you’d be able to distinguish between them, and realize that the words you use matter. You can’t just freely exchange one word for another and expect the meaning to remain the same, and yet that’s what you’ve been doing.
A punch exerts a certain amount of force. So does a bullet fired from a gun. It’s not about how much effort is required of the person inflicting the violence, but the amount of force applied to the target, among other factors.
“I don’t remember anybody arguing that the amount of effort required had any relationship to how violent an action was, or the amount of power vehemic energy it produces. When people have said force, they meant force, not effort.”
Several people have literally described ‘force’ as how Maxima is putting minimal effort (input) into her attacks for maximum pain (output). You might want to re-read the comments. I know there are a lot of them, but you can do a search.
“When people have said force, they meant force, not effort.”
As I have asked multiple people now, and gotten both answers depending on the person I ask, what do you mean by the word ‘force.’ Because I’m not sure you are using the word in the way that it’s defined. Or possibly you don’t know that force has a few different definitions, so I’ll explain them to you now.
Force:
(noun)
1) strength or energy as an attribute of physical action or movement
2) Coercion or compulsion by the use of threat of violence
(verb)
1) to make a way through or into something by physical strength (effort exerted through physical strength); break open by force.
2) make someone do something against their will (obviously not applicable to this context)
(physics definition of force)
Force = mass x acceleration.
So… when you’re saying ‘force means force’ (which is a tautology and meaningless), what do you specifically mean by force. Then I can refute your reasoning because all the reasons possible are not going to be consistent with what we’ve seen in one way or another if you want Maxima’s strategy to be effective, unless violence is used in a unitarian fashion of some sort.
“Considering how fixated you are on the meaning of words, I’d think you’d be able to distinguish between them, and realize that the words you use matter.”
Which is why I’d never say something as circular in logic as ‘force is force.’
“You can’t just freely exchange one word for another and expect the meaning to remain the same, and yet that’s what you’ve been doing.”
Violence has one commonly used definition. Force has several. Therefore, since some people seem to use words in a VERY lax manner, if I want to side for or against their argument, I need to know what they actually mean by the words they’re using. Because sometimes they might be just trying to get a word to fit where it doesnt actually apply, or there might be cognitive dissonance because they’ve doubled down on their stance even if it isnt consistent, or they might not be bothering to read what I’m asking or saying.
I have not been exchanging one word for another, as if the words have no logical relation to one another. I’m taking the word being used and analyzing the definition of that word. If what the person is describing does not meet that definition, chances are they’re either using the wrong word or their theory just doesnt make sense (ie, that Maxima’s strategy would work on Vehemence the way she thinks it would work, with people praising this idea as brilliant for some reason). I’ve seen people, including you, say things about how what Maxima is doing is not even violent, just painful. That makes NO sense. Because it’s violent BECAUSE of how painful it is, and because what she’s doing meets the literal definition of violence. Trying to say ‘she isnt using any force in this violence also doesnt make any sense, because she’s using a LOT of force – it takes a tremendous amount of force to do what she’s been doing to Vehemence. It just takes very little effort for her, since naturally so superstrong. Which is why I ask people if they’re meaning effort when they’re saying force. Because what they’re describing is the effort involved, which is sort of related to force in one of the definitions of ‘force.’
“A punch exerts a certain amount of force. ”
So you’re talking about physics then? I’ve actually explained in a few responses so far why that would not make Maxima’s strategy be effective, at least based on what we know so far, unless violence is more of a unitarian concept for how Vehemence powers up.
“So does a bullet fired from a gun.”
Which is why I often compare Maxima using little effort for maximum pain as equivalent to Peggy pulling a trigger for maximum pain. You’re describing how force works as cause and effect. Because part of the definition of violence is that the pain/damage/harm/injury inflicted must be intentionally inflicted. Otherwise it doesnt seem like it’s actually ‘violence.’
“but the amount of force applied to the target, among other factors.”
You’re clearly trying to describe the physics definition of force. Mass multiplied by acceleration. F=ma. Which is fine. But what she’s doing requires a LOT of acceleration, or something that has a lot of concentrated mass, or both. Her fingers are superstrong, but I don’t know how much mass they have. I’m assuming not an absurd amount, so if you’re going to use a physics definition for force, you’re saying that she’s using a lot of acceleration in order to pierce Vehemence’s wrist, then to break his arm, then to shatter his nose.
If you don’t think she’s either using a lot of acceleration, or that her fingers are not somehow possessing a lot of mass, then your definition of force doesnt work as a physics definition, and you might be meaning a DIFFERENT definition of force.
> It really doesnt matter if it’s relative to Maxima’s higher capability
By “normally” I mean what she would be normally using to do as much damage to him. Hence, assuming magnitude of violence is related to force, he’s getting less. Not nothing, because it’s still a decent amount of force, and very violent in other ways, but he’s using a lot, so ends up negative.
> How is that ANY different than their first fight?
Because this time Maxima is optimizing for damage (that’s expensive to heal.) Last time she was just punching him – painful and debilitating, but actual damage is often just a bruise. A broken knee is vital and expensive to repair. Combined with the reduced income from the less forceful violence that’s just enough to flip the balance(having already read the new page).
> But until he did the ‘force other people to fight each other, not just the people they’d normally fight’ thing, there would be a point at which one side or the other would be unable to continue fighting, and then the only person left to fight is him
But at that point he has already collected many more acts of violence than he could get from the smaller super brawl+himself, because he himself can only be involved in a handful of violent acts anyway. Under the unitarian hypothesis there’s no point.
> Mind you, this is just me trying to make Maxima’s strategy make sense in the first place. Because currently it does not UNLESS violence is taken on a unit-by-unit basis instead of severity of violence.
You only think that because you completely exclude the force factor from your definition of violence. And as I have shown, unitarian doesn’t work out.
> I just think shooting someone in the eye with an anti-materiel round from a high powered rifle is pretty violent.
Okay, but “I just think” is different from “we have seen”. You don’t really have much of a point left if you’re just presenting your intuition about the concept, where the concept is the point of contention. Mind you, I’d tend to agree, but only based on my own intuition.
> people had a problem with what Cora did to Chunky McSalsa because what she did was absurdly violent, even though it took her almost no effort or time to do so.
That wasn’t my impression. As someone who had a problem with Cora’s action, it’s because it wasn’t justified self-defense, hence murder. The goryness didn’t really matter to me, and I didn’t get the idea it did to many other people.
“If, by force, you mean effort […] then saying minimum effort is minimum violence would make no sense, since it’s also minimum effort for someone to squeeze a trigger on a machine gun [or an anti-materiel rifle], but it can cause a LOT of violence from that minimum effort. – Pander
I’m not sure that’s an accurate comparison. True, the shooter herself only expends a relatively small amount of muscular energy in squeezing the trigger. But that squeeze causes the (violent) release of a much greater amount of energy as the shell is accelerated down the barrel. It’s the projectile that reaches and charges Vehemence, not the trigger pull; the output of the tool, not the input.
Scotty:
“I’m not sure that’s an accurate comparison.”
I think it’s a VERY accurate comparison. What Maxima is doing was using WAY over 5000 newtons of force. It’s definitely more than MOST bullets, since a 22 calibre bullet only has about 304 newtons of force.
But in any case, the ‘effort’ is that of the attacker, not an object. An object has no intent, the user of that object does. And the user of the antimateriel rifle round was Peggy, who used a single squeeze of a trigger, which then made a 50 BMG exert about 33,900 newtons of force (enough to penetrate light armor, take down helicopters, destroy commercial aircraft, and blast through railcars, and most vehicles short of a tank). And shot it into Vehemence’s EYE.
So that’s maximum violence from minimum effort on the part of the attacker.
I realize that your argument is that the force is the output of the tool, but a tool isnt violent, it’s the person wielding the gun that is. To paraphrase the old standby quote, “Guns don’t kill people – people with guns kill people.” The fact that Maxima’s actions are, while (MAYBE) not 33,895 newtons of force here, it’s definitely more than the force of most guns short of the really huge, powerful ones like what Peggy was using in the first fight. And even here… I could be wrong and she might be using that much force, since 5000 newtons of force is how much it takes to break a NORMAL human bone, and Vehemence is FAR beyond normal human by this point, even if not at his restaurant fight power levels.
Good argument though. It just doesnt really change that Maxima’s strategy is poorly thought out based on what we already know about Vehemence’s powerset.
I’d really love to know where you’re getting your numbers from, because force isn’t really an inherent quantity of a cartridge – the force it puts out depends on the details of the impact.
My rough estimate on the average force Peggy’s shot put on Vehemence’s eyeball would come out to ~100kN, which is 10 tons of force – quite a lot, especially giving the efficiency of doing damage.
Not as much as Maxima punch, yes, but why would you expect it to be? Maxima destroys tanks, that’s much more force than a .50 can put out.
“I’d really love to know where you’re getting your numbers from,”
Discovery channel. Which said 4000 newtons.
https://www.discovery.com/science/force-to-break-bone#:~:text=One%20cubic%20inch%20of%20bone,break%20the%20typical%20human%20femur.
Livescience said it’s actually 5,000 newtons, which was in line with a few other sources I checked, including Mythbusters.
Mythbusters did a whole thing on it :) Which said 5000 newtons for the radius or ulna bones specifically, which are the ones that Maxima broke here.
So if I’m wrong, blame Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage. :) Also blame Discovery channel. And Livescience. :) I used multiple sources in case any single source was wrong.
As for where I got the 33,895 newtons number, I just googled to find out ‘How much force does an antimateriel rifle bullet have?’ and the result was 33,895 for a 50 BMG.
“A tool isn’t violent, it’s the person wielding it that is.” – Pander
That’s true if we take a very narrow definition of violence that requires intent specifically between the two entities in contact, but it ignores the use of the tool to magnify and redirect force. With such a narrow definition, one could easily argue that Peggy’s violence was not directed at Vehemence at all, but at the trigger mechanism of her Barrett!
If Peggy decides to be violent against Vehemence, her intent surely carries through the entire action regardless of what tools she uses. A defendant would be laughed out of court if she tried to plead Not Guilty on grounds that the use of a tool broke the chain of intent*.
I’ll posit a series of scenarios; would you say that there is a point in that series at which the chain of intent breaks, and if so where? I would say that there is not, and that the chain of intent remains intact. (And Vehemence stands there, and smiles, and asks if we want to test any more.)
1. Peggy swings her fist at Vehemence’s chin, and applies force through direct skin-to-skin contact. An easy case to start us off.
2. Peggy swings a length of pipe at Vehemence. The force is purely applied via the pipe without direct skin-to-skin contact, but there is a moment of indirect contact from Peggy through the pipe (and any clothes present) to Vehemence.
3. Peggy throws the pipe at Vehemence. There is no moment at which all three are in contact, but all of the force with which the pipe hits Vehemence was supplied to it directly by Peggy.
4. Peggy draws and cocks a crossbow, loads the pipe into it, and shoots it at Vehemence. Input and impact forces are effectively the same as in Case 3^, but Peggy’s input force is stored in the tension of the string before being used to propel the pipe.
5. Peggy drives a car into Vehemence. She herself only provides relatively small forces as control inputs; these release and direct a much larger force as the fuel in the engine propels a ton of metal into him. She is in the car when it hits, so there is a moment of indirect contact via its components.
6. Peggy again aims a car at Vehemence, but this time she bails out just before it hits him. Input and impact forces are effectively the same as in Case 5, but there is no moment of contact.
7. Peggy shoots Vehemence. She herself provides only small forces to aim and pull the trigger; these direct and then release the larger force applied by the propellant to the shell, and the shell applies that force to his face.
I’ll take your word for it on the exact forces involved. For the purposes of the debate, I figured a qualitative ‘X is much more than Y’ was precision enough. And yes, I’m deliberately keeping this thread about ‘the chain of intent in indirect attacks’ separate from our one on the previous comments page about the potential merits and motives of Maxima’s strategy.
* I’m not sure whether ‘chain of intent’ is a recognised legal term. If it is, and if it actually has a different meaning to the one I’ve used, please accept my incorrect meaning for the purposes of this post and tell me what to use instead for next time!
^ In reality, the bow (Case 4) is more efficient than the throw (Case 3). For purposes of comparison, ignore these gains – let’s say that using a random bit of pipe rather than a proper bolt cancels them out.
“That’s true if we take a very narrow definition of violence that requires intent specifically between the two entities in contact,”
No, it take into account cause and ultimate effect. The tool being used in the middle isnt changing the effort put in by the person initiating the ultimate effect.
“With such a narrow definition, one could easily argue that Peggy’s violence was not directed at Vehemence at all, but at the trigger mechanism of her Barrett!”
That’s actually a pretty brilliant logic argument, so I applaud you on that, but the problem again is you’re treating it as a series of causes and effects, where each step has intent. But a tool doesnt have intent. So I’m using the ultimate cause and the ultimate effect (ie, who has liability for the violence), the same way I would when determining fault in a tort case of personal injury.
“If Peggy decides to be violent against Vehemence, her intent surely carries through the entire action regardless of what tools she uses. A defendant would be laughed out of court if she tried to plead Not Guilty on grounds that the use of a tool broke the chain of intent*.”
What you’re describing is the legal term known as ‘liability.’ My point is that violence requires intent. Tools don’t have intent. The person wielding the tool does have intent. So the ‘force’ being used is the force used by the person as far as this argument goes. The tool is a force amplifier that doesn’t really change the effort made by the violence instigator.
“I’m not sure whether ‘chain of intent’ is a recognised legal term.”
It’s not, at least not in the law. I think what you’re trying to refer to is ‘liability’ – which is something that was discussed in a pretty famous case called Palsgraf vs Long Island Railroad Company, which is usually one of the more important cases taught in any law school Torts class.
My basic point is the effort involved is tied to the intent of the person, as far as labelling something as being violent. The tool used does not have intent, so a tool can’t be violent as its own thing. It’s just like a pully system – a force magnifier. The actual force used is by the actor, which is a small amount, even though it ultimately causes a LOT of damage because of that force multiplier in the middle.
“Tools don’t have intent. The person wielding the tool does have intent. So the ‘force’ being used is the force used by the person as far as this argument goes. – Pander
So on that basis, the scenarios where Peggy drives a car into Vehemence do not count as significantly violent, because she only applied small forces to the controls. In order for the full force of the impact to count as violence, the car itself would have to be capable of intent. Am I reading you correctly?
I am treating the degree of liability and the degree of force applied as two separate variables, and I am allowing the user’s liability to be transmitted through tools which have no intent of their own. If that’s not how the Law sees it, then you can blame my science background for the difference!
As I see it, if a person is fully liable for setting an inanimate tool in motion then they are fully liable for the effects that the tool causes – they don’t get to reduce their liability by pointing out that physics did most of the work. They are liable for applying the initial force against their target, and they are (separately?) liable for using a tool in the knowledge that it would magnify and/or redirect that force. Liability requires volition: the tool only becomes liable to the degree that it is capable of choosing whether or not to obey its user.
Also, thanks for clearing up ‘liability’. I had thought that word had several different potential legal meanings, most of which would simply have distracted from the question at hand.
Hmm. I wrote up this reply and the one on the other page in parallel before hitting Post on both in quick succession, and got an error page saying I was “posting too quickly, slow down!” Good thing it didn’t just discard the second one…
{Muttley}Rassn frassn close-link tags rassn frassn edit function…{/Muttley}
I can’t access your link from my country, but knowing that you’re referring to armbreaking is good enough, and I have no reason do doubt your number.
However, we know that Vehemence is much tougher than a regular human at this point, so it takes correspondingly more force to break his arm, so I don’t think we can compare those numbers.
My google finds no such number, and I really have my doubts about it, because as I said, force isn’t really inherent to the weapon platform.
Supposed to be a reply to Pander.
I’d post a screen cap for you instead, but I can’t do that on this type of forum.
“However, we know that Vehemence is much tougher than a regular human at this point, so it takes correspondingly more force to break his arm, so I don’t think we can compare those numbers.”
Right. And I’m using the 4000-5000 newtons as a base amount for a normal human. Since Vehemence is much, much, much tougher, then Maxima must have used much, much, much more force to crack the bones. :)
I suppose you could upload the screenshot on imgur and post a link, but I’m really interested in the derivation that number, because I don’t believe it.
> Right. And I’m using the 4000-5000 newtons as a base amount for a normal human. Since Vehemence is much, much, much tougher, then Maxima must have used much, much, much more force to crack the bones.
But you don’t actually know how much energy it costs Vehemence to heal. If it scales with his toughness, then Maxima only needs to use comparably less force to what would hurt him as much fighting in her normal style to get him negative and the absolute force doesn’t actually matter. Alternatively, if healing is just inherently super expensive, which I don’t believe but would neatly explain why he started healing so late in the brawl, Maxima only needs to use sufficiently less force than back then.
I typically look in the comments to find intelligent conversation. This is the strip where I found myself disappointed… Some of the arguments being made against Max’s plan working is a clear indicator they either did not bother seeking the past fight and are new to the comic, or just straight up lack common sense and not paying attention. C’mon guys…
Well at least you can feel smarter than us then. Always something.
Me just look at shiny box on table and bang buttons on typewriter thing and things appear on tv thing. Magic.
Yeah, let’s just accept the fact that we can never reach the intellectual superiority of KorgCrimson. We are really only good for stupid babbling about stupid puns. Hurr hurr, me make bad pun make Pander go angry hurr hurr. I is so funny.
I mean, there are characters who do seem to genuninely like almost all violence – Goku kept sparing people he really shouldn’t be sparing for a reason, and the Major’s epic rant is epic.
It’s just… those people have problems, and we treat their love of violence as a character flaw for a reason.
Klingons make more sense.
come on vehemence, kick her cheap dollar store jewlery kncock off ass!
Yeah this is one of those occasions I find myself rooting for the bad guy.
I was sort of cheering for Sciona because she seemed like the underdog, even though she was a generally awful person.
Other than that I usually cheer for the heroes who are good and saviors of humanity and all that is right in reality.
Like Deus. (waits for Guesticules’ response) :)
(all praise Deus, amen0
“I usually cheer for the heroes who are good and saviors of humanity and all that is right in reality. – Pander
As opposed to any ‘heroes’ whose motives and/or outcomes are rather more questionable? Bravo for drawing that distinction!
“As opposed to any ‘heroes’ whose motives and/or outcomes are rather more questionable?”
Exactly! Since Deus’s motive are for the good of all of us, and are only questionable to those who are just jealous of him. *wistful sigh*
Kevin’s pouty lip face absolutely cracks me up.
Did he always have such full lips? It looks unusual on him.
Ka-LIPS!
What I would love to see is Vehemence figuring out a way to counter Maxima’s new way of fighting. We’ve already seen he’s far from a simple brawler; in fact, it was his ability to plan, strategize and improvise that made him such a dangerous opponent.
I’m suddenly wondering what it would take to brainwash V-man to be terrified of violence. Oh and make him stop working out. If he’s both determined to avoid violence and is bad at it he could probably be released into the wild. Maybe he’d even consent to it if he gets bored enough with sitting in a cell.
So, you are proposing to slowly kill Kev?
No I’m proposing to put him in a position where he never wants or pursues more violence juice than he needs to live. Like Ron Swanson eats bananas, he can choke down a knuckle sandwich twice a week to stay healthy without starting any supervillain schemes to plunge the world into endless war for the sake of chaos itself and whatnot.